Exposing Watchtower Lies & Errors - Part II

by AGuest 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

AGuest

Dearest Hooberus... may you have peace!
I have read what you've posted here... and I can see why you say what you do. However, may I ask you:
Why did the disciples not recognize my Lord when he appeared to them, if it was the SAME flesh? When I inquire of my Lord on this, his reply to me is that is was NOT the same flesh, but had been "changed". The first flesh held sickness and death in it - corruption. Although it did not "see corruption" in that it did not deteriorate in the tomb, it did, in fact, die (for it is only that which is INcorrupt - which does not house sickness and death in it - that does not die).
I know that there were piercing marks, and my Lord was not a spirit when he showed himself to Thomas, et al. So, I also asked about that, and he said that spirit creatures (those that are "free") have an ability to do what we cannot: put on and take off flesh, of whatever human form they wish. He said that he did not reveal himself in the same flesh as the disciples knew because he was "going away" and it was his VOICE he wanted them to learn to listen to: since he would be a spirit, they would no longer be able to see him with their eyes of flesh, so they needed to learn to HEAR him... and put faith in what they heard. Had he appeared in the same flesh... and they recognized him that way... from then on they would have been looking for an outward appearance... which they were not going to get.
So, I hear what you are saying, and my Lord directs me to say to you that some were derided for saying that the resurrection had already occurred (2 Timothy 2:18). Yet, some wrote that a resurrection had indeed already occurred (Matthew 27:51-53) - to whom, then, do we listen? (Matthew 17:3; John 10:27)
I bid you the greatest of peace.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
hooberus

Why did the disciples not recognize my Lord when he appeared to them, if it was the SAME flesh?

The reason why the disciples did not at first recognize Jesus was because "their eyes were holden" (Luke 24:15), not because he didn't have the same flesh. Later "their eyes were opened" (Luke 24:31). This is similar to the situation in Luke 24:45 when he "opened" their understanding that they might understand the scriptures. It was the same scripture as before however now their understanding was "opened"
Luke chapter 24
[13] And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
[14] And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
[15] And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
[16] But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
[17] And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
[18] And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass therein these days?
[19] And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
[20] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
[21] But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
[22] Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
[23] And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
[24] And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
[25] Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
[26] Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
[27] And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
[28] And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
[29] But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
[30] And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
[31] And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
[32] And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
[33] And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
[34] Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
[35] And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
[36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
[37] But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
[38] And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
[40] And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
[41] And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
[42] And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
[43] And he took it, and did eat before them.
[44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
[46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
hooberus

I don't think that the one whom you refer to as "my Lord" is the same as the real Jesus Christ. I believe that you may have "another Jesus" "another spirit" and "another gospel"
2 Corinthians Chapter 11
[1] Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
[2] For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
[3] But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
[4] For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.[5] For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
[6] But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.
[7] Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
[8] I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
[9] And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
[10] As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
[11] Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
[12] But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
[13] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
[15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.[16] I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
[17] That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
[18] Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
[19] For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
[20] For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
[21] I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
[22] Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
[23] Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
[24] Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
[25] Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
[26] In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
[27] In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
[28] Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
[29] Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
[30] If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
[31] The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
[32] In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
[33] And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.
AGuest

Dearest Hooberus... peace to you!
The fact that their eyes were "holden" was NOT that they were physically blind, dear one. They could SEE a man. They could see to walk down the road. Their eyes... were SPIRITUALLY blind... so that it was my Lord who granted them to see... upon their recognition of his voice. The vessel, then, that held him, was of no import (other than to prove to Thomas that he had indeed been raised up). Just as it says, "We shall all be CHANGED" - not in SPIRIT... but in BODY.
(And my Lord is NOT the one whom you and others call "Jesus", which names means "Je is Zeus". My Lord is the Son of the Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and his name is JAHESHUA (JAH Saves) MISCHAJAH (chosen of JAH). His name in English... is "Joshua"... not "Jesus.")
Again, I bid you the greatest of love and peace.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
hooberus

AGuest said: The fact that their eyes were "holden" was NOT that they were physically blind, dear one. They could SEE a man. They could see to walk down the road. Their eyes... were SPIRITUALLY blind... so that it was my Lord who granted them to see... upon their recognition of his voice. The vessel, then, that held him, was of no import (other than to prove to Thomas that he had indeed been raised up). Just as it says, "We shall all be CHANGED" - not in SPIRIT... but in BODY.

The point still remains that the reason why they did not recognize him was not due to him having different flesh as you earlier said, but due to their eyes being holden.
The fact that their eyes were "holden" was NOT that they were physically blind, dear one. They could SEE a man. They could see to walk down the road. Their eyes... were SPIRITUALLY blind... so that it was my Lord who granted them to see... upon their recognition of his voice.
They did not see him until there eyes were opened. In Luke chapter 24, their recognizing him was due to vision and not due to voice. They had already been listeneing to him, and while their hearts burned because of listening to him, they still did not recognize him until their eyes were opened.
The vessel, then, that held him, was of no import (other than to prove to Thomas that he had indeed been raised up). Just as it says, "We shall all be CHANGED" - not in SPIRIT... but in BODY.
The fact that his original body was rasied is important. It fulfilled the prophecy Jesus said in John 2:22. John Chapter 2 shows that the same body that was destroyed was to be raised. The word "this" is in the present tense, hense the same body that he had before the crucifixion was to be raised.
18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.
[22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
hooberus

Earlier AGuest said:
Had he not shown them a body with piercings, they would not have believed it him. Why? Because for those who lack faith, as did Thomas, et al., SEEING... is believing. But it is not those who see who will be counted "happy." It is those who do NOT see... those who HEAR... who will be.

This is similar to a statement in the Watchtower book "You Can Live Forever in Paradise Earth" (Chapter: Christ's Return: How Seen?) in which they also deny that that the body that Jesus appeared to Thomas was the same body that was nailed to the tree.
John 2:19-22 clearly shows that it is the same body.
hooberus

Earlier AGuest said:Those who look to the flesh... and for the flesh... are misleading themselves, as did Thomas, who lacked faith. My Lord... is a SPIRIT. So that he cannot be realized through the flesh, just as God cannot be worshipped through the flesh. It MUST be done... by means of spirit.

Luke 24
I36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
[37] But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
[38] And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
[40] And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
AGuest

I understand what you are saying, dear Hooberus:
I do not deny that it was flesh that my Lord showed to Thomas... flesh and bone. I do not deny that they were listening to him prior to having their eyes open. In fact, I believe I said just that: it was his VOICE that made things clear to them... not his appearance. It wasn't until they recognized him BY his voice, that they were able to exercise the FAITH needed to SEE him. "Mary!" "As he began speaking to them, their eyes were opened."...)
I do understand my Lord's statement "tear THIS temple down and I will raise IT up," to mean that indeed flesh was raised. But the flesh that was raised up was indeed "different": it contained neither death nor corruption in it, unlike the flesh that was impaled. The flesh my Lord "put on" was INcorruptible... it had no blood (red hemoglobin) in it, as the blood of the body BEFORE had poured out when he was pierced. "Free" spirit creatures can do that, put on and put off flesh... as they are "free". It is we who are enslaved... in flesh... with its blood.
But flesh... with its blood... cannot enter into the spirit realm; only flesh with HOLY SPIRIT as its "blood", its life force, can do so. Thus, he "ascended".
I also understand why we disagree and have no problem with that. The disciples disagreed on several things; that did not "divide" them. What DIVIDES the Body... is hatred and hypocrisy.
Am I preaching a different Lord than you? Perhaps. Perhaps you are preaching a different one than me. But it is not by our particular knowledge or belief at some time that identifies us - Paul had to change his thinking on several occasions. What identifies us is our love... for God, neighbor and enemy... without hypocrisy.
I have no choice but to listen to the "voice" that speaks to me... that has never lied to me or led me astray. It has revealed "all truth" to me... and I trust it. I have no choice. One thing I have learned, however, is that I do not have to be "right." None of this is about ME. I do, though, have to have faith that what I hear is from the One who says to ME that he is the Christ, the Son of the Holy One of Israel.
I can read Luke, I can read John, I can read... read... read. And when, for some reason, I am in doubt, I do. But for the most part, I have found that following the admonition at John 5:39, 40 has served me MUCH better, for it never contradicts itself. Whereas, what I READ... seems to do so, from time to time.
Truly, I know no other "Way" - John 14:6
Again, I bid you peace.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
hooberus

AGuest said: I do understand my Lord's statement "tear THIS temple down and I will raise IT up," to mean that indeed flesh was raised. But the flesh that was raised up was indeed "different": it contained neither death nor corruption in it, unlike the flesh that was impaled.

The same flesh that was crucified was indeed raised.
Jesus received his physical body from Mary, a decendant of David. Thus he was of the seed of David. The scriptures teach that after his resurection that he was still of the seed of David, hense it was the same flesh.
Acts chapter 2
29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
[30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
[32] This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Romans chapter 1 (compare this with 2 Timothy 2:8)
1] Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
[2] (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
[3] Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
[4] And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
2 Timothy chapter 2
[7] Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
[8] Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
[9] Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound
Jesus's body bore no sin, until he bare our sins on the cross.
1Peter Chapter 2
[22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
[23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
[24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
After he died for our sins, his same body was raised, though it now bore no sin.
John Chapter 2
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.
[22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
AGuest said: I have no choice but to listen to the "voice" that speaks to me... that has never lied to me or led me astray. It has revealed "all truth" to me... and I trust it. I have no choice. One thing I have learned, however, is that I do not have to be "right." None of this is about ME.
I have heard Mormons say similar things, that their "Heavenly Father" told them that their mormon beliefs were true. I have also herd a JW say that he felt that they were led by the "spirit" in their door to door work.
AGuest said: I do, though, have to have faith that what I hear is from the One who says to ME that he is the Christ, the Son of the Holy One of Israel.
"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24:5
AGuest said: I can read Luke, I can read John, I can read... read... read. And when, for some reason, I am in doubt, I do. But for the most part, I have found that following the admonition at John 5:39, 40 has served me MUCH better, for it never contradicts itself. Whereas, what I READ... seems to do so, from time to time.
The only way that you can know that you are coming to the true Jesus Christ (John 5:39-40) is to study the scriptures. The fact that your interpretation of the scriptures contradicts other scriptures shows that you are wresting the scriptures.
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 peter 3:16
hooberus

The scriptures teach that the same body that was crucified was raised. The same flesh that was crucified was raised.
The scriptures teaches that this same flesh was glorified when it was raised, however it is still the same flesh. Jesus flesh does not now bare our sin, but it is still the same flesh that was crucified. That is why it has wounds.
John chapter 20
[25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
[26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Exposing Watchtower Lies & Errors - Part II

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