Zoroaster spoke thus

by Doug Mason 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    The following is from: Cosmos, Chaos and the World to Come (pp. 222-224), Norman Cohn. Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

    To return to the Book of Daniel: even linguistically there is something odd about the work, for chapters 2 to 7 are written, not like the rest of the Old Testament in Hebrew, but in the language of the Iranian empire, Imperial Aramaic; and they contain no less than twenty Persian loan-words.

    More importantly, in chapter 2 there is an image which has a close parallel in Zoroastrian lore: the statue in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, with its head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of bronze, legs of iron, and feet part iron and part terracotta. In the Iranian apocalypse Zand i Vahman Yasht (meaning ‘Commentary on the hymn in praise of the god Vohu Manah’), Zoroaster dreams of a tree with branches of gold, silver, steel — and iron mixed with clay.

    Nebuchadnezzar’s statue and Zoroaster’s tree both symbolise the same thing: a succession of four historical periods. The concept of four ages, symbolised respectively by gold, silver, bronze and iron is to be found already in an eighth-century Greek work, Hesiod’s Work and Days; but the addition of iron mixed with clay is an innovation, and such a curious one that it cannot be coincidental. Nor is there much doubt as to which is the original, Nebuchadnezzar’s statue or Zoroaster’s tree. Although the extant version of the Zand-i Vahman Yasht is — like all Zoroastrian texts — late, its origin is very ancient. Some scholars hold that it goes back to the time of Alexander the Great, others that it goes back further still. What is certain is that it is far older than the Book of Daniel.

    That being so, one would expect the Iranian interpretation of the dream to be more natural, more persuasive than the Jewish. And so it is — especially the interpretation of ‘iron mixed with clay’. In the Zand-i Vahman Yasht the image symbolises the age when ‘non-Iranians will be mixed with Iranians’ — that is, when the good strong iron of Zoroastrian Iranians will be weakened by an influx of infidel foreigners. In Daniel ‘iron mixed with clay’ is interpreted as the time when Seleucid rule will be weakened by unsuccessful dynastic marriages — a forced comparison if ever there was one!

    There is other, even more convincing evidence of Zoroastrian influence. When Nebuchanezzar asks Daniel to interpret this same dream, Daniel invokes ‘a God in heaven who reveals mysteries … mysteries of what is to be’ — and the word for ‘mysteries’ is rz. It is the very same word as is used in the Scrolls to denote the secret knowledge which the Qumran community treasured above all things: knowledge of God’s plan for the world, and especially for the end of time. And it is a Persian word, much used by Zoroastrians in precisely the same sense.

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister

    Wow Doug that is absolutely fascinating , thank you. Like all ex witnesses I am rather obsessed with the origins of the book of Daniel. I’m going to order that book on kindle or Audible. Sounds fantastic.

    Do you subscribe to the You Tube channel “Digital Hammurabi”? If not they are well worth a listen to. A married couple of academics with expertise in ancient near eastern languages. They have several videos/podcasts specifically on the book of Daniel, Doug.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason
    The following is a further passage from Cohn's book. It is a citation from a book written in 1791: (Volney: Jean Gaulnier, Un grand témoin de la Révolution et de l'Empire, Paris, 1959. The passage quoted from Les Ruines at pp. 143–6 of vol. 1 of the 1791 edition; trans, by N.C.)

    [A Parsee – an adherent of Zoroastrianism – speaks:] Because if you study carefully the details of the laws, rites and precepts which are supposed to come directly from Moses, you will not find, in any article, a hint — even a tacit one — at what now constitutes the theological doctrine of the Jews and their offspring the Christians. Nowhere will you find a trace either of the immortality of the soul, or of an afterlife, or of hell or heaven, or of the revolt of the angel who is supposed to be the main author of the evils of mankind, etc. … So, added the Parsee priest, addressing the rabbis, it is only after the time of your first kings, that these ideas appear in your writers; and they appear only bit by bit — furtively at first, in accordance with the political relations which our fathers had with your ancestors; it is chiefly when your fathers, conquered and dispersed by the kings of Nineveh and Babylon, and brought up for three generations in succession in our country, that they assimilated the manners and opinions which until then had been rejected as contrary to their Law. When our king Cyrus had delivered them from slavery, their hearts warmed to us [Zoroastrians] out of gratitude; they became our imitators, our disciples, the most distinguished families, which the kings of Babylon had had educated in Chaldaean sciences, brought new ideas back to Jerusalem, foreign doctrines. …

    The Pharisean or Parsee doctrines prevailed; and, modified according to your genius and the ideas which are peculiarly yours, it gave rise to a new sect. You expected a king who would restore your power, we announced a redeemer and saviour God; and from the combination of these ideas, your Essenes made the basis of Christianity; and Jews, Christians and Moslems, you are, in your system of spiritual bangs, nothing but the straying children of Zoroaster. (Cohn, 238-239)

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Search the www for sites that discuss the relationships, such as with: Zoroastrianism and Judaism.

    This is interesting information from a Jewish Perspective:

    http://collections.americanjewisharchives.org/ms/ms0603/ms0603.053.010.pdf

    Doug

  • HowTheBibleWasCreated
    HowTheBibleWasCreated

    Doug: For my book i'm writing I was wondering if you know any parallels between the book of Zoraster and Isiaah 40-66. (I know Is. 45:7 is a quote). I know ths is off topic. Sorry

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Not a problem. I sent you a pm.

    Doug

  • smiddy3
    smiddy3

    marked for later .

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    If anyone does purchase the book by Cohn, make sure you read the "Afterword" and especially the "Appendix".

    Doug

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Thanks for your Post and for the Link to the A/J Archives Paper Doug , I found this quote particularly interesting, ( I have yet to read it all) :

    "Professor M. Boyce of the University of London is able to state, as a result of searching and rigorous scholarship: Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith. In its own right it was the state religion of three great Iranian Empires, which II flourished almost continually from the sixth century· B.C. to the seventh century A .. c . Iran's power and wealth lent it immense prestige, and some of its leading doctrines were adopted by Judaism~ Christianity and Islam, as well as by a host of Gnostic faiths .•. today external forces have reduced the Zoroastrians themselves to tiny scattered minorities, living mostly in Iran and India; but beliefs first taught by their prophet are still subscribed to by other peoples throughout the world. "

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    This certainly puts a new perspective on things for me, I was aware of Persian influence upon Judaism in small measure, but did not realise how very influential it was. It seems too that Zoroastrian thinking not only came down to Christian thinking via Judaism, but found its way there on its own !

    The "new" Christian sects were more branches from the same (Zoroastrian) tree than mere sprouts from the Judaic branch.

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