by Sea Breeze 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
Heh
You have fallen for one of the false dogma of Churchianity.
God DIDN'T have His plans changed. He designed the Earth to be a home for man. And made room for a few (144,000 maybe literal or symbolic) to be rewarded as fellow King with Christ.
A Jesus said, the meek WILL inherit Earth!
Madster - You have fallen for one of the false dogma of Churchianity.
Maybe you've fallen for someone else's trap.
Enoughisenough said: "My conclusion is if one accepts that all has sinned, then when Jesus says his blood is for the forgiveness of sin for all, then I take that to be literal as well."
Who said anything about a symbollic "all" - not me, you can take the "all" literally just not "absolutely" - "other" is implied in "all" so "all" might not mean everybody, there still may be exceptions, again Paul makes this evident.
"All has sinned" - did Jesus sin? did God? what about the majority of the angels? did inanimate objects?(this last one is hyperbole, but you get the point) there lies the flaw in that statement, How do you account for the other scriptures where "all" is used, when it doesn't actually mean "all"?
"The fig tree and all the trees" - is a "fig tree" now not a "tree" because it says "all trees"? you said "all" means everything (or one) so apparently that's how I should understand it - but that is clearly wrong.. and again there are other ways to be saved - I can think of 1 off the top of my head.
again:
“The words ‘world’ and ‘all’ are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that ‘all’ means all persons, taken individually.”
(Particular Redemption, A Sermon, No. 181, 28 Feb 1858.)
Punkofnice: There are many many scholars and historians (Modern & Ancient) who have proven Jesus existed, God is slightly harder as the people in the bible automatically assumed God existed - so no need to place explicit evidence upon the case. (too the writers and people of that time, too us its slightly different)
If the bible is a hoax, Why was new evidence of King David recently (admittedly articles vary on dates) found?
Why did Romans mention Jesus? (atleast 2, that I'm aware, pretty sure there is more - both non-believers)
Why is the bible such an accurate time keeper? (look into it if you haven't, I mean actually look into it)
How did the universe begin? Big Bang? (there are multiple explanations so I will not say "explosion" or anything particular to cover the basis) doubtful
- What caused the "Big bang"?
- Why is everything so "perfectly" made, everything makes sense and has a purpose
+ hundreds more questions
most questions non-believers can throw are answered in the bible.. It is also important to note the Bible was never written to answer all questions, nor does it explicitly explain certain things. This is evident from the lack of defining terms in the bible, its rare that the actual meaning is explained (or spelled out)
"Why does God allow suffering?" - proving a point and an important one
"Why does (bad thing i.e disease) exist" - Sin (one of the rare terms that is somewhat defined)
The evidence is there whether you accept it or not..
Blotty. How are you keeping? OK. Here I go....
Punkofnice: There are many many scholars and historians (Modern & Ancient) who have proven Jesus existed,
Source material needed because I've never seen one single one that is specific.
God is slightly harder as the people in the bible automatically assumed God existed - so no need to place explicit evidence upon the case. (too the writers and people of that time, too us its slightly different)
Then God is either non existent or died. If God is all he/it's cracked up to be, it would reveal itself and hold it's arms out like a loving Father, not hide so that countless lives can be lost arguing about God. The idea honestly sickens me.
If the bible is a hoax, Why was new evidence of King David recently (admittedly articles vary on dates) found?
If Spider-man is a fictional character, then why does New York exist? Lots of fiction has real places and people in it.
Why did Romans mention Jesus? (atleast 2, that I'm aware, pretty sure there is more - both non-believers)
I've never seen it. Can you show the source material?
Why is the bible such an accurate time keeper?
I don't follow you.
(look into it if you haven't, I mean actually look into it)
I don't know what you are referring to.
How did the universe begin? Big Bang? (there are multiple explanations so I will not say "explosion" or anything particular to cover the basis) doubtful
- What caused the "Big bang"?
I wasn't there so I neither know nor care because it won't make any difference to my every day struggle to put petrol in my car or feed myself.
You don't know for sure either.
- Why is everything so "perfectly" made, everything makes sense and has a purpose
That's just it. Things are certainly not perfectly made. And I don't buy the whole fall of man nonsense to fill in for the imperfection.
+ hundreds more questions
You and me both.
most questions non-believers can throw are answered in the bible
No they're not. I see you used 'most' there. But sorry. The Muslims claim the same about the Quran. Why are they wrong and Christians aren't?
Sorry to tell you but you've been conned.
(Links will follow in my next comment - Busy with work and family so do not have time to gather atm (& couldnt even if I wanted too), watch this space plz)
as good as I can be, how about yourself..
The scholars I refer are not hard to find.. dont know why you havent found them but ok sure
"Then God is either non existent or died. If God is all he/it's cracked up to be, it would reveal itself and hold it's arms out like a loving Father, not hide so that countless lives can be lost arguing about God. The idea honestly sickens me." - not nessacarily, you conveniently omitted part of my comment.. (the exact reasoning that ironically is the answer to your statement)
"The Muslims claim the same about the Quran. Why are they wrong and Christians aren't?" - never researched the Quran, so honestly couldn't answer that question. As far as I'm aware the Quran is similar to the bible - a dead giveaway would be when it was written (I would be very interested to know now tbh).. also I don't insist "Christians" are right. As when people say that they normally mean trinitarians & iv pointed out before they have very flawed argument's in some cases.
"If Spider-man is a fictional character, then why does New York exist? Lots of fiction has real places and people in it." - there's solid evidence New York exists tho, Spiderman, there is none.. King David however has quite strong evidence (This argument in general is flawed)
The place where the Spiderman story happens is based off a real place, very different and again very flawed.. Why are Egyptians writing about a Jewish King? (Pretty sure he was Jewish) Why do Romans mention a Jewish king (This may be my bad memory, you can take this comment with a grain of salt)
again Ill cite the scholar in their entirety but why fake some of the stuff written in the bible? it seems pointless, there is no rhyme or reason, unless your going to make some stupid argument about the writers having a "narcissistic" idea or something.. in which case I say - get real.
Spiderman is not portrayed as reality nor will ever be recorded as being reality.. (unless you are what i said above) because that would be a lie.. and again rather pointless.. The fact remains there are NO ancient scholars (or historians) that I am aware of that dispute the existence of any bible character, you would think if they didn't exist it would have been disputed.
"Things are certainly not perfectly made." - perfectly is in " " indicating I didn't have a better word at the time, There is evidence against a "big bang" or whatever.. if a random explosion (Ill use that, note there are many other theories out there) how did everything come to exist so "orderly" (i.e water cycle)
note- the bible mentions this ages before it was "discovered" (scripture in following comment) I have a reasonable explanation put it that way.. does anyone know 100% no, is it of interest, yes. Should it be, debatable (if your Mr pessimistic, then its not going to be of much interest and frankly there are other people looking for debates online that know more than me on some of these subjects )
Too answer the "time keeper" bit (this should be self evident, I'm not using "mysterious" language) but Ill say "Historical record" then, you can search these out, but scholars (some non -christian) admit the bible records events that happened very accurately (they do this by cross referencing with other sources)
Why is the bible such an accurate time keeper? (look into it if you haven't, I mean actually look into it)
How did the universe begin?
blotty, the blot on that claim of timing accuracy is found in Gen 1:1
" In the beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth--"
false, Light from the beginning is 13 billion years old, near the Big Bang, The Sun / Earth only 4.5 billion. A lot of work had to be done after the first Energy Conversion to lead to our existence, but the bible is wrong, and that is only the start. Done by early science fiction writers.
Not everybody goes to heaven because at some point in time people, like Adam could have, will eat from the tree of life and death will be no more neither will outcry or pain be anymore.
Waton
you can do the research yourself, you'll find many non-Christians who also disagree with you for various reasons.
there are numerous flaws in that argument, which I may one day address, but right now have little time to do
Blotty, there is no shortage of opinions about every passage in Revelation, but Leolaia compiled a very well argued, exhaustive explanation using careful scholarship with restraint trying only to understand the author's intent. You are encouraged to read it carefully.
Peaceful Pete
The poster raises some good issues, however again if they are the same group... or symbolic, there's one underlying question.. that everybody seems to fail to realise.
On the issue of 144,000 I'm more inclined to agree with the Witnesses, Edgar Foster & Jim space along with a few others. (except for maybe 3 things which have 0 biblical basis, in my opinion)
