Sea Breeze, which types of rocks do you have in mind which had a known age prior to the dating of those rocks by a radiometric dating method? Do they include rocks which were formed within the past 100 years by lava?
The question`s GOD beleiver / Creationists ignore or don`t / won`t / can`t answer ?
by smiddy3 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Disillusioned JW
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Disillusioned JW
hooberus, would Jesus Christ, if he actually existed (hypothetically speaking) as both a human and as the son of God the Father meet your criteria of functional complexity? If he as Sea Breeze claims, hypothetically speaking, that Jesus Christ's fleshly human body was resurrected and ascended to heaven, and if Jesus is also God and a spirit being and part of a trinity, and if Jesus Christ also created/made and designed everything (and everyone) other than Jesus, Yahweh God the Father, and the holy spirit, would Jesus then be a designer who is more complex (according to the sense you use the word in this topic thread) than all humans (other than Jesus) who have ever existed? Furthermore, would the Trinity, if it actually exists, be a designer god who is even more complex than Jesus since it consists of both Jesus the Son, God the Father, and the holy spirit as one god instead of as three gods?
Keep in mind that parts of the Bible describe Yahweh God in very anthropomorphic terms. For example it says that he sees and hears (not just mind reads), planted a garden in Eden, fashioned/built/made a man out of dirt, built a woman from a rib bone, shut the door of the Ark, opened windows (or floodgates) in the heavens (or the sky or the expanse) and sent a downpour of water through them, smelt the aroma of a sacrifice made by Noah after the flood, cast down fire from heaven, is (or is like a) potter, has emotions and thoughts, is a manly warrior, and is king and our father. Many Christians (including the writers of the WT literature) believe he has a spiritual/spirit body. The book of Revelation describes John seeing him (and Jesus) in a vision sitting on a throne, and Acts describes Stephen seeing both God the father and Jesus also. Do such descriptions in the Bible and ideas of many Christians about Yahweh having an actual body of some sort indicate the biblical concept of Yahweh (at least as understood by many Christians) includes the idea that Yahweh has a human-like composition as part of his composition, including sensory organs/sensors?
Regarding a deistic type of god is the idea of it/he/she/them as a creator/designer essentially a meaningless concept since its composition is not defined at all and since no human has ever seen, heard, felt (such as by tactile means), smelled, tasted, or by any other sensory means detected such a being?
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Disillusioned JW
Hi Sea Breeze. Within two days I plan to make a post commenting on what you said about why orthodox Jews put faith in Jesus (a cursed man) and regarding your comment about the significance of the claim that Jesus was resurrected and walked out of the tomb.
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doubtfull1799
@Sea Breeze - throwing out a bunch of texts from the same mostly pseudepigraphical sources (and part of the same collection of religious propaganda) provides no evidence of what Jesus actually said. The fact that these writers claim to be eyewitnesses doesn't help us when we don't know who they were and know from textual analysis that they couldn't have been eyewitnesses as they were written much later. What is to stop these people from putting words in Jesus mouth? How can we verify any of those verses you quoted?
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smiddy3
" fashioned/built/made a man out of dirt, built a woman from a rib bone, "
In my lifetime I have known a few dirty people male and female both morally and physically but c`mon ,he made a man out of dirt ?
And built a beautiful woman ? from a rib bone ? What was she a skeleton ?
The book of Genesis belongs in the science fiction section of any library .
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TonusOH
Smiddy3: And if something / anything is designed it must have a designer ?
By definition, something that was designed would require a designer. The question is better asked: is our physical reality designed? I am not sure that question can be answered, because we can define "god" in so many ways as to make anything possible. But until we find something that continued and persistent research shows had to be designed, we are free to disbelieve in a designer/creator.
The fact that the universe exists means that we have to accept that there was always something out there, or that it somehow appeared out of nowhere. None of these concepts make sense to me. Telling me that a god always existed and decided (after a literal eternity) to create a universe and populate one microscopic dot with beings that he would then take an inordinate interest in-- I can't wrap my head around it. At the same time, telling me that the universe -which is larger and more massive than I can possibly comprehend- was born from a dot that held all of its mass and was so tiny as to also be incomprehensible... same problem. I can't wrap my head around it.
Now, the difference is that the latter idea has proponents who have to demonstrate how they came to that conclusion. And even when their ideas become strong enough to gain acceptance, they can always be challenged as we learn more or when someone takes a different approach and gets useful answers. Science is wrong a lot of the time, which is part of the process of learning. The scientific method is a reliable way of learning, but it requires time and effort and will always be affected by people who make mistakes and by people who deliberately mislead others. It is superior to an approach that says "this ancient book has all the answers, they're just subject to the correct interpretation-- good luck with that!"
I leave the details to those who actually study the relevant fields of science. I don't have to prove that someone doesn't exist or that something didn't happen. If you cannot prove that someone does exist, or that something did happen, then I'm not concerned with what your book says about me or my future, or the future of my world.
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BoogerMan
Those on both sides of the debate rely on faith where there are unanswered/unanswerable questions.
The $64,000 question for atheists: how could anything physical ever come into existence on its own?
The $64,000 question for believers: how could something spiritual ever come into existence on its own?
Yup, faith.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction/clarification: In my prior post where I said 'If he as Sea Breeze claims, hypothetically speaking, that Jesus Christ's fleshly human body was resurrected and ascended to heaven ..." I should have said "If Jesus Christ, as Sea Breeze claims, hypothetically speaking, has a fleshly human body which was resurrected and ascended to heaven ...".
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Disillusioned JW
BoogerMan, Energy-matter never came into existence, but rather has always existed. It can be transformed (for example some energy can be transformed into matter, and vice versa), for scientists have seen it take place and have done it (such as in nuclear fusion and nuclear fission reaction experiments). Energy-matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Even the big bang did not create/make energy matter. It did transform much energy into matter, but the sum total of energy-matter did not change. Thus as far we can tell from our study of physics, energy-matter is eternal. In that since energy-matter has one of the characteristics which the alleged creator/designer god has, namely no beginning and no end, namely eternal existence. Energy-matter is frequently detected by humans but no God has ever been detected by humans. It thus does not require faith to be convinced in the existence of energy-matter in place of being convinced of the existence of God.
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truth_b_known
Energy-matter never came into existence, but rather has always existed.
DisillusionedJW for the win!
In addition, the Big Bang is not what started the Universe. The Big Bang is an event that happens over and over. The Universe itself is eternal. It always has been and always will be. Therefor, no creator. (See: Robert Penrose - Big Bounce theory)
Just as there is no matter. Matter is energy. Our brains create an illusion that we call separateness.