The ORG'S "foundation" name............

by BoogerMan 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • TonusOH

    Diogenesister: (perhaps because they often get challenged that they are not?)

    That was my experience. When I was a JW, I didn't understand why people thought we did not believe in Jesus. Once outside of it, it was pretty clear. The WTS will insist that it places proper emphasis on Jesus, but it pushes him aside and replaces him with the GB as the intermediary between Jehovah and humanity. So it's no surprise that they always seem to be fighting an uphill battle to convince Christians that they belong in the club.

  • Vanderhoven7


    Thanks for sharing your testimony.

  • Duran
    Every use of the name Jesus glorifies his God Jehovah.

    Actually, the use of that name does not glorify his God. The use of that name is meant to keep hiding the name of God. Any who wanted to glorify God would use the name that was actually given to use.

    יהושע - Jehoshua

    [ 43 I have come in the name of my Father, but you do not receive me.]

  • Vanderhoven7

    Hi Duran,

    How does knowing and using the Hebrew name of God and His Son matter or help?

    If the Pharisees knew and used the Hebrew name of God repeatedly, how would it have profited them?

  • slimboyfat

    I think Ezekiel 34 is an excellent explanation of the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus. It says:

    Yahweh Will Shepherd His Flock

    11 For thus says Lord Yahweh, “Behold, I Myself will seek My sheep and care for them. 12 As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his sheep which are spread out, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day. 13 I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will shepherd them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. 14 I will shepherd them in a good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel. There they will lie down on good grazing ground and be shepherded in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I will shepherd My flock, and I will make them lie down,” declares Lord Yahweh. 16 “I will search for the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken, and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd them with judgment.

    17 “As for you, My flock, thus says Lord Yahweh, ‘Behold, I will judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats.18 Is it too slight a thing for you that you should beshepherded in the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pastures? Or that you should drink of the clear waters, that you must foul the rest with your feet? 19 As for My flock, they must be shepherded on what you tread down with your feet and drink what you foul with your feet!’”

    20 Therefore, thus says Lord Yahweh to them, “Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you push with side and with shoulder, and thrust at all the sickly with your horns until you have scattered them abroad, 22 therefore, I will save My flock, and they will no longer be plunder; and I will judge between one sheep and another.

    23 “Then I will establish over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will shepherd them; he will shepherd them himself and be their shepherd.24 And I, Yahweh, will be their God, and My servant David will be prince among them; I, Yahweh, have spoken.


    It says that Jehovah is the shepherd and he looks after his sheep. Then it says that how he does this is through his “servant David” who “will himself be their shepherd”. And the conclusion is that Jehovah is their “God” and his servant David will be “prince among them”. I don’t know how much clearer you can get than that.

    When Jesus said “I am the fine shepherd” (John 10) he was claiming to be the Davidic messiah prophesied in Ezekiel, God’s servant.

    Jehovah “will be their God” and that the messiah is God’s servant. This is the conclusion that JWs and other non Trinitarians draw from the plain meaning of such verses. The idea that what such passages really mean to say is that God and his servant are two co-equal and co-eternal persons within the one being of God is nowhere even hinted at in the text.

  • Duran
    How does knowing and using the Hebrew name of God and His Son matter or help?

    I wasn't claiming anything in regard to it helping or not, just making the point about the Latin form doesn't glorify the name of God, that it is the Hebrew form that does.

    But as far as knowing/using, it always matters/is helpful to use a name to identify who is being spoken to/about.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    And the conclusion is that Jehovah is their “God” and his servant David will be “prince among them”. I don’t know how much clearer you can get than that.


    I agree. But, Christians have always used the NT to interpret the OT. Russell's trick was to do it the other way around.

    The reason that WT trainees have such a hard time conceiving the fact that Jesus is BOTH fully God and fully man is that the WT denies the tri-partite nature of man.

    When the witch of Endor called up the Spirit of Samuel for Saul, was he dead? Yes. Was he talking to Saul, Yes. The bible assigns personhood to not only a persons body, but also their spirit and soul as well:

    Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? ....And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? - 1 Samuel 28

    If Saul as a spirit can talk, why can't Jesus' Spirit (as God) speak at times?

    The problem isn't whether or not WT trained people believe the Triune nature of God, the problem is that they disallow the possibility that we ourselves (made in the image of God) are ourselves constituted of three shades or interfaces of being - soul, body and soul.

    Reading the bible in a literal way, using the plain sense, shows that Jesus was also a tri-partite being. "God is a Spirit". Jesus had a Spirit as part of his constitution, same as us. Only his Spirit was God.

    Once a person deprograms from a WT / Materialistic view of the nature of man and replaces it with a biblical view of the personhood of the spirit and soul, then it is much easier to accept the biblical view that Jesus was both fully God and fully man; and as such spoke from BOTH identities from the one man - Jesus

    This is the root of the problem that prevents former JW's from accepting the nature of Jesus.

    Dead souls are also persons that retain all the consciousness they had when they were alive:

    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? - Rev. 6

    The heretical materialist view of man that the WT pushes is the real problem here.

  • slimboyfat
    The reason that WT trainees have such a hard time conceiving the fact that Jesus is BOTH fully God and fully man is that the WT denies the tri-partite nature of man.

    It’s not just “WT trainees” as you put it, who don’t find the “fully God and fully man” dogma in scripture. It’s all non Trinitarians across history, including early modern believers, the Polish brethren, William Whiston, Isaac Newton, Samuel Clarke, John Milton, nineteenth century Unitarians Ezra Abbot, George Vance Smith, Ulfilas who converted the Germanic tribes in the 4th century and translated the Bible into Gothic, the majority of ordinary believers during the 4th century Christological dispute - basically any Christian believers before Chalcedon 451 AD when the doctrine of the dual nature of Jesus was formulated. Not to mention the fact that any serious scholar who studies early Christianity without a prior faith commitment to the Trinity and Chalcedon definitions does not find the dual nature idea anywhere in scripture or early Christianity. So, not just “WT trainees”.

  • Diogenesister

    Thanks for the Arian response.👍🏻

    Sea Breeze There was a sadness to see him go, if only for the comfortable familiarity of the chains I grew up with.

    😉 Who doesn't vibe with that feeling, as the kids say!

    Jesus and I had traded places
    Jesus became my sin (the scapegoat

    Don't you ever feel guilty about that? I don't know it just seems so cruel...😬

    32 And if he cannot [do so], when the other king is still a great way off, he sends an envoy and asks the terms of peace.
    If we secretly try to add anything or anyone one else..... Jesus and your own self, the deal will not be accepted

    🤔 Interesting. Watchtower never uses these scriptures this way. So simply.....

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