The First Holocaust

by nicolaou 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • slimboyfat

    The estimated population probably doesn’t take into account a literalist interpretation of Genesis, so perhaps not relevant to an evaluation of Genesis in its own terms. I’m not saying the figures make the difference but your specifying the numbers does make one wonder why you introduced the specific number as well as on what basis.

    I am questioning the ethics of theoretical discussion about God’s culpability for mass killing in a context that we can’t fully understand if it did happen, rather than focussing on our own complicity here and now in a mass killing we have no excuse for remaining ignorant or indifferent about.

  • slimboyfat
    Something like 70% of all birds are chickens.

    That’s a poultry amount, if you ask me.

  • KalebOutWest

    This is ridiculous.

    The story doesn't even originate with Yahweh, the God of Abraham. The original flood story comes from the Gilgamesh tradition.

    It claims the flood was the result of a debate between the gods Enlil and Enki.

    The Genesis story just copied that one. So if really believe there was a flood, why not pick the older story? Why not blame the gods Enlil and Enki?

    See how stupid all this sounds?

  • nicolaou

    It really doesn't matter whether the details are accurate or not, whether the story is borrowed or not or even whether it actually happened or not.

    The point is that billions of people today claim at least nominal allegiance to this character and a good proportion of them worship and love him. THAT'S the reality that is so unsettling.

    How is this healthy for humanity?

    Perhaps I should start the Harold Shipman Fan Club? I'm sure he did a lot of good in Greater Manchester, well, you know, if you just ignore the mass killings.

  • slimboyfat

    KalebOutWest It’s possible that Genesis and Gilgamesh are both based on the same events. Just because they have features in common doesn’t mean they are not independent accounts. Plus an older account is not necessarily a better account. If we want to know what happened in World War One the latest academic monographs on the subject would be a reasonable and arguably preferable place to look, even though many older accounts are available.

    Plus even if the author of Genesis was aware of an older Gilgamesh account of events his narrative can be read as a reaction against that tradition and an attempt to correct some errors that it spread. When people act as if dependence on Gilgamesh somehow settles the issue it seems to me they have not thought about the possibilities deeply enough. If you’re inclined to discount the Bible then I suppose the mere existence of Gilgamesh is enough to hastily conclude: derivative therefore nonsense. It’s a bit lazy and too convenient.

  • slimboyfat

    nic I don’t know exactly what happened in past catastrophes and how closely the Bible narrative fits the facts. What I do think is that the universe and our place in it is an amazing miracle and that such a miracle as that didn’t just happen by itself and for no purpose. The one who is responsible for this miracle I think has some kind of plan that may be beyond my understanding. I trust that he knows better than me what he is doing, though that is hard to think at times. But what else should I conclude, that I a puny human have worked out the ethics of life and death and can teach the creator my conclusions? Surely it is possible, just possible, that although things seem one way to us, God may have a more comprehensive understanding of reality than we do. Instead of pointing the finger at God we need to look at ourselves and the misery we humans are causing to each other and what we can do to stop it.

  • peacefulpete
    But what else should I conclude, that I a puny human have worked out the ethics of life and death and can teach the creator my conclusions?

    Or maybe you can write your story about a deity that no one needs make excuses for. Maybe someday your story will inspire people to act in ways to be proud of.

  • Rivergang

    Not a particularly attractive being, that God of the Old Testament.

  • PetrW


    Let's make the assumption as many Christians do that the Bible is historically accurate. The Noachian flood actually happened a little less than 4,500 years ago after which eight adults stepped off the ark to repopulate the planet.

    That means that approximately 60 million lives had been snuffed out, a holocaust by anyone's estimation. As if that isn't horrific enough just think about the babies, toddlers and young children God killed.


    The only connection I see with the flood and the holocaust (rather: I am forced to use your comparison...) is that the flood of the world removed the perpetrators of the holocaust not the victims. The flood of the world swept away the then "Mengele" with his pseudo-medical experiments on humans. If there were "unclean" animals in the time before the Flood, then the question is what all that society was doing for animal and human experimentation... what experiments on children it was committing, what disgusting bestialities it was committing...

    Nobody feels sorry for the perpetrators of the Holocaust. No one feels sorry for the Japanese doctors who experimented on people, no one feels sorry for the end of the German extermination camps, where people went straight from the freight trains to their deaths by suffocation... it doesn't matter if there were 15, 20 or a million Mengele. They created conditions that were unbearable for life and lost all humanity.

    The flood was survivable, and it was survivable because people were warned. Only Noah and his family took it seriously.

  • stan livedeath
    stan livedeath

    so why did god kill all the animals--bar a few ? what was the reason for that ?

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