The Dub At My Door (is back for Return Visit)

by TerryWalstrom 31 Replies latest jw experiences

  • TerryWalstrom

    IF the Bible is a collection of hearsay, the core basis of Jehovah's Witnesses is opinion
    1. The Faithful and Discreet Slave is consequently granting itself power based on human opinion (self-deception).

    2. The reason constant doctrinal changes occur and prophetic dates fail is human opinion is fallible no matter how sincerely believed.

    3. Only JW's old enough to have lived through dramatic failures and dogma changes fully appreciate the plausibility of this statement.

    In view of the above, debate with JW's is two-mindsets clashing in two separate magisteria or jurisdictions.
    This being:

    A. Ex-JW who has seen the human error and investigated evidence which debunked claims of divine authority. A so-called "Apostate" is NOT really a renegade against God.

    B. The convinced (i.e.faithful and loyal) JW imagines himself to be representing an honest organization.

    For person A, person B is deluded although honest. For person B, person A is Evil and fighting against a truly necessary work.

    How then can any agreement be possible since their separate realities clash?

    In my opinion, the core issue is AUTHORITY and consequently AUTHORIZATION.

    1. The Bible, if really the Word of God, must contain necessary Truth and somewhere there is a pure understanding to be found and cherished and promoted.

    2. The Bible, if only a human document, may contain historical wisdom and ethical ideas, but cannot purport to be anything other than a competing philosophy in the marketplace of ideas. It stands or falls on a case by case application.

    MY TASK is to lay out those two alternatives and require evidence to support all claims.

    A TRUE Bible (Divinely Authored) would never fail any test and would stand up against all competing systems.
    A corrupt human document BIBLE would break down historically, and logically in terms of internal consistency with reality, plus supernatural knowledge (data) would jump out of the text beyond Bronze Age wisdom.

    All the above is sort of my road map toward a possibility of testing foundational arguments. An intellectually honest person would agree in advance to accept where the evidence landed regardless of one's prior position or belief.

  • NJ501

    Great experience thanks for sharing...I can see your a writer as well, and a good one.

  • carla

    I would like to UPS my jw to you!

  • TerryWalstrom

    If this Dub was any other run-of-the-mill brain-dead robot I would have given him my Apostate speech:

    "Let me just stop you there before you get too deep into your message, my friend.
    In the interests of full disclosure, I used to do exactly what you're doing today. I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses back in the 60's and 70's. I even spent time in Federal Prison over the Conscientious Objector Christian "neutrality" principle which was in effect back then. I was a full-time Pioneer as well. So I am quite familiar with what you are offering me."
    I stop at that point and see if they are curious or can't wait to get away from door.

    If they are curious I add a little bit more about the run up to 1975 and how the Earth was going to be too overpopulated and people would be starving by 1975 and how it was the End of 6,000 years of human history and Bible studies were only to last a maximum of 6 mos. because time was so short. And how NOTHING happened and the Watchtower and GB said NOTHING for almost 2 years while we all waited for the other shoe to drop.

    I never get very far into details before they are inching toward the exit :)

    One Dub said rather haughtily, "Yeah, some of the weaker Brothers and Sisters were only hanging around to save their own ass--they didn't love Jehovah."

    I replied, "I think that's called Salvation, isn't it? That's the central message of Christianity, saving your ass. As far as not loving Jehovah, I think you're missing the point. All of the predictions ever made by the Watchtower have been made IN THE NAME of JEHOVAH and they turned out to be a lie. Why would an intelligent person want to stick around for more and more lies? Every false prophecy is sold as Jehovah's loving provision. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice---hell no!"

  • smiddy3

    That was a very interesting dialogue you had with Earl

    My bet is if he does come back it will be with the stock answer :

    "Even if their are no original texts still available Jehovah will have made sure that the texts that are available will be the same as the originals. He will make sure of that .After all he is GOD."

    How do you argue with that logic.?

  • _Morpheus

    Good question smiddy and theres lots of angles... one i like to explore is why the nwt added back the name of their desert god.... if he is all powerful and able to protect his word through 1000’s years then why was his name ever gone? Why is there a need for textual comparisons and revisions over time if his word was protected? Wouldnt we have good copies throughout the centuries?

  • midnight
  • EverApostate
    "Even if their are no original texts still available Jehovah will have made sure that the texts that are available will be the same as the originals. He will make sure of that .After all he is GOD."

    An Almighty god cannot preserve his holy writings through out the ages ? And this god also remains silent when his name is taken out of his own book. A "Jealous" god who wipes out millions of people (As said in the Bible) remains silent when his holy book's originals are lost and/or tampered

    If I write a book I would preserve the originality and copyrights, at least until I am alive.

  • under the radar
    under the radar

    Masterful job, Terry! You handled the entire situation just right. Hopefully, he will actually think about your conversation and draw his own conclusions without undue influence from others with their own agenda.

    I suspect, though, that if he's been a JW very long, he will tell his friends and maybe even his elders about this most unusual RV. If it comes to light that you were ever a JW, he'll be warned away from "that dangerous apostate who uses clever words to undermine your faith." He'll be assured that the Devil is backing you and whispering in your ear what to say, the better to confuse and beguile the unwary.

    If they don't yet suspect that you were once a JW, he might very well might come back with a more experienced "brother," maybe even the Circuit Overseer, who they imagine will be able to keep up with you and overcome your misguided reasoning. When that inevitably fails, I'd bet dollars to donuts he'll never come back again. Heck, your house may even be put on the Do Not Call list. Can't have smooth talking demons in disguise taking advantage of the flock, can we?

    I truly hope you can liberate another poor soul from bondage to ignorance and superstition the Watchtower. Good luck, and please keep us posted.

  • TerryWalstrom

    I got a text this morning and Cheerful Earl and an older man (elder?) would like to "drop by". I gave the okay. So, thumbs up to those who predicted this!

    I've planned a Hannibal style ambush. (Not the psychopath, the Carthaginian general).

    I've got three traps set. Any one of which, if sprung, should lead to topics which will place an Elder in a defensive posture.

    Keeping 2 of these creatures off balance is like juggling chainsaws!

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