by Wonderment 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
There is biblical support that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are identical
VdH, no, the GM and the 12 tribes might be identical (wt at some place some time calls the 12 tribes the earthly class), but not the 144k,
The 144 000 are the elite that comes out of the Earthly class. Even today's "partakers" were just observers in the beginning.
Consistency is not a strong point of the wt, unless we are talking about their consistent prophecy failures.
Consider how they determine the 2520 years of the gentiles and arrive at 1914.
For the first part of the equation,to get 2520, they use 360 day years. They then magically apply that change to 365 day years for the time frame 607 to 1914.
It's like multiplying 2 lbs of potatoes by 3 kgs of potatoes and claiming you now have 6 pounds of potatoes.
Conversion is a thing in maths but the wt is hoping no one notices.
It is all symbolism (off course). The Babylonians used the 6/12 based number systems and the Jews took that over. 666 and 144 variants show up over and over in both old and New Testament.
144 is simply the prophesied replacement of 666, which we now know is to mean emperor Nero:
6+6+6= 18, 1+8= 9; 1+4+4 = 9.
Since Revelation was largely an anti-Nero pamphlet, we should read it in the sense that the Jews (144000) would be in the place of the Beast (Nero or 666). The writer puts in the warning that the reading is a puzzle and to be shrewd and clever.
The way I have had it explained to me was the book of revelation has a pattern.
John would hear something - Old Testament Imagery
John would see something - New Testament Imagery
The premise is Jesus defeated his enemies by dying for them.
John hears the calling of the 144,00- Old Testament military census from the book numbers.
John sees a great crowd no one could number - Gods final convent is open to all those who believe.
It doesn't really matter much to me anyway. Eschatology is the playground of cults and false religions anyway.
I like this comment by David Chilton brought up by Vanderhoven7 in one of his posts here:
David Chilton, in his commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" says:
The tidy number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness." (p.206)
I don't think this information alone "proves" that the 144,000 number is symbolic, however, it is incisive.
Unless it tells you otherwise, ALL of the bible is literal
Rubbish ! I suggest some entry into bible/ theological colleges is called for before making such rash assertions.
The ideal Israel
note that in Rev 7, both Israel and the 144000 are contrasted. The total membership of the 12 tribes is indeterminate. the number of those sealed out of it, is precise, and limited. the angels are counting.
until the last one is found. literally.
It makes the New Jerusalem 144001.
Well, in revelation it says John "heard" a number 144000 (Jews) and when he "looked' he saw a great crowd of all nations people tongues (all believers)
So, what I think is that in the beginning salvation came through Jews, but now it's open to all, through Jesus.
Amen Iriddle80
That is the hearing, then seeing pattern found throughout Revelation.
