114,000, Literal, or Symbolic?

by Wonderment 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Old Testament Saints also have the same heavenly hope:

    Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

    Psalm 73:24-25 You guide me with Your counsel, and afterward You will take me into glory. Whom have I in heaven but You? And earth has nothing I desire besides You.

    Matthew 8:10-11 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

    Hebrews 11: 9-10, 13-16 9 By faith he (Abraham) sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.... 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    It seems that multitudes became Christians in the first century.

    (Acts 2:41) 41 So those who gladly accepted his word were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 people were added.

    (Acts 2:47) 47 praising God and finding favor with all the people. At the same time Jehovah continued to add to them daily those being saved.

    And Acts 4:4 says, “many of those who had listened to the speech believed, and the number of the men became about 5,000”.

    (Acts 5:14) 14 More than that, believers in the Lord kept on being added, great numbers both of men and of women.

    (Acts 6:7) 7 Consequently, the word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying very much in Jerusalem; and a large crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith.

    Acts 9:42 This (healing) became known throughout all Jopʹpa, and many became believers in the Lord

    (Acts 11:21) Furthermore, the hand of Jehovah was with them, and a great number became believers and turned to the Lord.

    (Acts 11:24,26) 24 for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and faith. And a considerable crowd was added to the Lord. 26 So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians

    Acts 13:48 When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah,* and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.

    Acts 14:1 Now in I·coʹni·um they entered together into the synagogue of the Jews and spoke in such a manner that a great multitude of both Jews and Greeks became believers.

    Acts 18:8-10 And many of the Corinthians who heard began to believe and be baptized.9 Moreover, the Lord said to Paul in a vision by night: “Do not be afraid, but keep on speaking and do not keep silent, 10 for I am with you+ and no man will assault you to harm you; for I have many people in this city.”

    David Chilton, in his excellent commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" page 206 says


    The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness."

    There is biblical support that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are identical, that they really are the same group being described from two different perspectives, divine and human. John heard the (perfect) number; then he saw the actual group. This "hearing" then "seeing" sequencing is a literary device that THE APOSTLE John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images from different viewpoints. David Chilton demonstrates this pattern of hearing and seeing on page 213 of:”Days of Vengeance:”

    For example, in 1:10-13, St. John hears a Voice, then turns

    to see the Lord; in 5:5-6, he hears the Lion of Judah, then

    sees the Lamb; in 6:1-8, he hears a living creature say "Come!"

    - then sees the object of the creatures command. The same

    pattern appears in this chapter: St. John tells us, I heard the

    number of those who were sealed (v.4); then, after these things

    - after hearing the number of the redeemed - I looked, and behold

    a Great Multitude (v.9).

    There is one church indivisible; the Great crowd is not a piddly 8.5 million which we can all number; and the number of those sealed by the Spirit of God is a perfect number, representing a perfect innumerable body of believers. As promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    Thank you guys for your excellent annotations! I found those of Vanderhoven7 and Slim particularly compelling - one in favor and one against the literalness of the number.

    Ding made this very insightful observation, which incidentally is one of my thoughts on the subject:

    "I've never gotten a good answer to this question: How can 12 symbolic 12,000s comprise a literal 144,000?

    They either have to be all figurative or all literal."

    The various comments posted here exemplify that valid points can be made for either viewpoint. If I recall correctly, Raymond Franz, in one of his books, expressed a certain level of uncertainty as to the final destiny of Christian believers. On one hand , he was seemingly inclined to view the heavenly hope as the main avenue for future life, per the many references tied to it in the NT. But then he implied that God had created the earth with purpose, to be inhabited by humans, and that was not likely to change, in lieu of the many biblical passages related to the heavenly hope for Christians.

    I find that there might be a potential link between the true Christian hope of future life, whether in heaven or earth, and this other reference of 144,000 to be heirs with Christ in heaven and their subjects. More clarifying information on this matter would clear many a doubt. The question is: Is such information available?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Have you come across A New Heaven and a New Earth: Reclaiming Biblical Eschatology (2014) by J. Richard Middleton? I was recommended the book by someone and have heard that some JWs are pointing to it as deploying good arguments in favour of JW-style paradise earth as the destiny of obedient humans,

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0801048680/

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    the destiny of obedient humans

    SBF,

    There is no such thing.... especially for JW's who have agreed to let the WT take away their Mediator.

    Scripture says:

    "There is no one righteous, no not one".

    "there is none that doeth good"

    "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags"

    Until somebody gets themself in agreement with God's view - very little will make sense to them in the bible.

    You seem to hang on to a hodgepodge of WT teachings. Are you still a member?



  • Blotty
    Blotty

    If we are too take 144,000 symbolically then it is worth understanding if we take the following symbolically or literally -

    In Rev 21:4 it mentions "The twelve names of the twelve apostles of the lamb" - We know this to be literal as Jesus had 12 apostles

    In 20:3 + 5-7 Satan is said to be locked away for 1000 years (note it would make 0 sense for this to be symbolic)

    Revelation 11:16 says “24 elders” - is this literal or symbolic? Im leaning more to literal

    are the 12,000 from each tribe actually symbolic in light of: 2 Corinthians 1:22?

    even though the book of revelation is highly symbolic, if it places a literal number on something I see no reason to take it symbolically - the only exceptions being:

    Matthew 18:22 - forgiveness 77 times, but commentaries and scholars alike seem to agree this is a Greek idiom for time indefinite

    Revelation 13:18 - the number "666" seems to by symbolic or more likely a label of something

    see here for more on 666:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_beast#:~:text=Here%20is%20wisdom.-,Let%20him%20that%20hath%20understanding%20count%20the%20number%20of%20the,the%20number%20comes%20to%20666.

    How do we know the 12,000 of very nation is symbolic and not literal? Their are many references from ones who imply they are part of this group (at least how I understand it)


    I may well be very wrong in views.

  • waton
    waton

    Math. 19: 28 " you, (the 12 apostles) will sit upon 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. "

    The 12 tribes of Israel, out of which the Apostles, and the multiple of their number came, are the large pool, great crowd . The 144 000 are the few rulers of the many. The number is limited, literal, not indefinite.

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    SBF: "Have you come across A New Heaven and a New Earth: Reclaiming Biblical Eschatology (2014) by J. Richard Middleton? I was recommended the book by someone and have heard that some JWs are pointing to it as deploying good arguments in favour of JW-style paradise earth as the destiny of obedient humans"

    No, but I will look into it. Thanks for the tip!

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    I agree with "If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally."

  • ThomasMore
    ThomasMore

    Vanderhoven, WTC talks out of both sides of its' mouth. Since Rutherford redefined the meaning of the great crowd and the 144K, they have struggled to make their narrative fit the reality of history.

    JW's want part of the verses in Rev 7 and 14 to be literal while the rest of the verse is figurative. They say the number is literal but that the individuals are not literally virgins. They say the number is literal but the individuals are not actual descendents of Abraham. And the list goes on...

    It is word salad by tthe time WTC finishes interpreting a Bible verse.

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