Another trinity thing

by Mozzie 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Ding

    The Trinity doctrine doesn't say that Jesus emptied himself of his deity and then regained it at his baptism.

    It says that although Jesus never stopped being God, when he became a human being he emptied himself of the independent exercise of his attributes of deity and depended totally on the Father for his knowledge and miracles.

    As such he was positionally subordinate to the Father, and as a man he worships his Father as his God.

    If you would like to read more detailed explanations from the trinitarian perspective, I recommend either Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology or Robert Bowman, Jr.'s Why You Should Believe in the Trinity.

  • stillin

    Whatever the truth of the matter may (or may not ) be, it's all invisible and we seem to be left guessing as to "heavenly" details.

  • cofty

    It is impossible to state the trinity clearly in your own words without contradicting yourself and/or committing heresy.

    Therefore it is gibberish.

    The early church found itself in the embarrassing position of worshipping Jesus in practice. They pulled a veil over their polytheism by coming up with a form of words that nobody was allowed to question on pain of death.

    This is not a good way to discover truth.

  • cofty

    The Searcher - excellent research on the god of Jesus.

  • HB

    I have come across various viewpoints, but they mostly fall into two camps:

    1. Jesus IS NOT identical to God but is part of the Godhead in the way that a human son is part of his father. They share genes plus physical, emotional and mental characteristics, but they think and act independently.

    2. Jesus IS God, i.e. he is fully one and the same ‘being’ as God and the reason there are separate names is to distinguish the part of God the father who remained in Heaven while his alter ego Jesus the Son was on earth. In this case, it appears that God decided to split himself into two different 'beings' by begetting a son. He can thereby appear in two places at once and his two personas can act autonomously to each other, but remain the same entity.

    Another analogy for the first scenario could be a band comprising a guitarist, a bassist and a drummer. The word ‘band’ is a singular item grammatically although in this case it’s also a trio. We think of it as one thing, however its constituent members are separate independent beings. The band members each make a different sound, but to make music, they have to be in harmony with each other and keep to the same rhythm and timing.

    It's much harder to find an earthly analogy/metaphor for the second scenario, especially bearing in mind Jesus allegedly existed before the universe was created. Conjoined twins later separated doesn’t work as there are two distinct individuals involved with that. Nor does genetic cloning fit as the offspring is not ‘as one’ with the parent, he/she is merely identical genetically. I'd be interested to know if anyone has any suggestions that are not sci-fi or mythology.)

    In either scenario, people tend to only focus on Jesus but what about the third part of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit? Is it simply God’s consciousness, his brain and thoughts and wishes, or is he/she/it a separate but closely linked entity which God controls and sends to do his bidding?

    If the former, why not just make the godhead a duality, why a trinity? If the latter, why not give the Holy Spirit a personal name?

    Or could it be that humans invented God and later added the idea of ‘three in one’ following other earlier myths, traditions and superstitions? Trinity appears to imbue the deity with greater majesty, power and mysticism and the concept is great PR - “buy one, get two free”!

  • prologos
    cofty: "--I'd be interested to know if anyone has any suggestions that are not sci--

    suggestion from sci not fi, how about entanglement from the quantum world, moving separately, but acting united when looked upon?

    The secret is not to look or even think about things like that, you might collapse the concept.

  • garyneal

    What cofty said. Basically, the trinity doctrine was devised to explain how the Christians could worship Christ while simultaneously being monotheists. To claim that Jesus is God and the Father is also God is to invite polytheism into your religion, which is a no no in a monotheistic religion. Therefore, the Trinity was concocted that explains that there is only one God that is manifested in three persons. Confused? So are most Christians.

  • Mozzie

    The post from the Searcher are the scriptures i was taught about to debunk the trinity, i was reading about the coming together of those to discuss who Jesus was in relation to worship, it is a man made creed, it is so frustrating as there are scriptures that talk about the deity of Christ. I know it also says that the father has given the son all authority in the Heavens and Earth and that the angels are to worship him and every knee will bend. So i guess it is a given that we will never know, it is interesting tho cause some will say that it is important to know the trinity so as to have your worship in union with the true God and only then can you be saved by knowing the truin God. Just another doctrine i was taught by the JWa that i am trying to make sense of it all

Share this