WT using Satan`s courts again

by JWD 17 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Kismet

  Clarification time.

  Does waiting on Jehovah mean doing nothing to better one's circumstances? The Society has said no. Jehovah blesses actions. The Society views legal actions in that light. We are taking action to better a situation. If jehovah so decides, we will win. (Note I said Society views not "I" view)

  While we may view it as hypocritical, the Society has very carefully constructed scriptural principles to fall back on..i.e the earth opening up swallowing up those persecuting God's people= earthly governments swallowing up those who persecute jw's. Revelations

  I do think that it would be hypocritical on OUR part to only insist that JW's should not have access to legal recourse. Personally I'd love to see all religions stripped of their status. Encourage individual spirituality but organized religion in all its forms should be removed.

  Francoise:

  People can be restrained, even instutionalized, if they are found to be a danger to themselves or others. This woman in Japan was manifestly a danger to herself, and to any one else she could control. As such the pastor was right.

  Who the hell is this pastor to make that kind of decision. In order for anyoen to be restrained or institutionalized it requires the EXPERT opinion of medical professionals not the angst of some other hypocritical religious leader. It was kidnapping and forceable confinement regardless of any spin anyone wants to put on it.

  Bluesapphire:

  I agree there is a double standard that exists within the org. But I think at times ex-jw's also hold a double standard, on for the WTBS and another for all other religions. I think all should be held equally accountable.

  So for general discussion should the Society:

  A) not use the courts in any fashion to defend the rights of their adherents?

  or

  B) fight for the same rights accorded to other religious groups?

  or

  C) Use the courts only when life threatening issues arise?

  or

  d) other, please explain.

  Kismet - trying to maintain a balanced perspective.
• 

  Flip

  Well for starters Wendy…and I’d be surprised you hadn't heard of this author who wrote, Jehovah's Witnesses in Canada, which told the story of the Witnesses' fight for civil liberties under Canadian law. By James Penton c.1975 while he has still one of Jehovahs Witnesses.

  Who incidentally went on to write Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah’s Witnesses, once he ceased association.

  Here is just a cursory list of references below which you will find at freeminds, * http://www.freeminds.org/history/conflicts.htm*

  American Civil Liberties Union. The Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses. New York, January, 1941.

  Barmenkov, A. Freedom of Conscience in the U.S.S.R Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1983.

  Barna Research Report. How Americans View Religious Groups. Press release, March, 1990.

  Beckford, James A. "The Trumpet of Prophecy: A Sociological Study of a Jehovah's Witness," Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1975. Review, Vol. 23, No. 4, Nov., 1975: 33-34.

  Bergman, Jerry. Jehovah's Witnesses and Kindred Groups. New York: Garland, 1984.
  ______. "The Adventists and Jehovah's Witness Branch of Protestantism," Chapter 3 in Alternative Religions, Ed. by Timothy Miller, Albany, NY: State University of New York University Press, 1995.

  Bettelheim, Bruno. The Informed Heart. Glencoe, IL: The Free Press, 1960.

  Bontecou, Eleanor (ed). Freedom in the Balance, Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 1978.

  Bosmajian, Haig. Freedom of Expression. New York: Neal-Schuman Pub., 1988.

  Brinkerhoff, Merlin B. and Marlene M. Mackie. The Applicability of Social Distance for Religious Research; An Exploration. Review of Religious Research, Vol. 28, No. 2, Dec. 1986.

  Cox, Archibald. The Court and the Constitution. Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1987.

  Dershowitz, Alan M. Chutzpah. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1991.

  Edgerton, Henry W. Freedom in the Balance; Opinions of Judge Henry W. Edgerton, edited by Eleanor Bontecou. Westport, CT: Greenwood Press Publishers, 1978.

  Haymann, Tom. The Unofficial U.S. Census. New York: Fawcett Columbine, 1991.

  Hefley, James and Marti. By Their Blood; Christian Martyrs of the Twentieth Century a Continuation of Fox Book of Martyrs. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1979.

  Jubber, Ken. "The Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Southern Africa. Social Compass, 24(1):121-134, 1977.

  Kaplan, William. State and Salvation. Toronto: Univ. of Toronto Press, 1989.

  King, Christine Elizabeth. "Strategies for Survival: An Examination of the History of Five Christian Sects in Germany 1933-45." Journal of Contemporary History, 14:211-23, 1979.
  ______. "The Nazi State and the New Religions: Five Case Studies in Non-conformity" Studies in Religion and Society Volume Four,

  Lewiston, NY: The Edwin Mellen Press, 1982.

  King, Kathleen and Dennis E. Clayson. "Perceptions of Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses and Homosexuals." California Sociologists, Winter, 1984, pp. 49-67.

  Kogon, Eugene. The Theory and Practice of Hell. New York: Berkeley Medallion Books, 1958.

  Lipset, Seymour Martin. "The Sources of the "Radical Right" in The Radical Right, Ed. by Daniel Bell, Garden City, NY: Anchor Books, 1964.

  Maddox, Robert. "Reflections On Surviving Morton Downey," Church and State, Dec., 1988: 21.

  Magnani, Duane. Danger at Your Door. Clayton, Ca.: Witness Inc. 1987
  Penton, M. James. Jehovah's Witnesses in Canada: Champions of Freedom of Speech and Worship. Toronto: MacMillian, 1976.

  Reppas, Thanasis. So As Never To Know War. Athens, Greece: published by author, 1980.

  Semonche, John E. Religion and Constitutional Government in the United States; A Historical Overview with Sources. North Carolina: Signal Books, 1986.

  Sibley, Mulford Q., and Philip Jacob. Conscription of Conscience: The American State and the Conscientious Objector, 1940-47. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1952.

  Sorauf, Frank J. "Jehovah's Witnesses," subtitle in the Guide to American Law. St. Paul, MN: West Publ. Inc., 1984.

  Starr, Isidore. Human Rights in the United States, New York: Oxford Book Co., 1964.

  Whalen, William J. Armageddon Around the Corner; A Report on Jehovah's Witnesses, New York: The John Day Company, 1962.

  White, Timothy. A People For His Name; The History of Jehovah's Witnesses and an Evaluation. New York: Vantage Press, 1967.

  Witt, Elder. The Supreme Court and Individual Rights. Washington, DC: Congressional Quarterly, 1988.

  Wuthnow, Robert. "Anti-Semitism and Stereotyping." in In the Eye of The Beholder: Contemporary Issues in Stereotyping. Arthur G. Miller (ed.) New York: Praeger, 1982.

  Yaffee, Barbara. "Witnesses Seek Apology for Wartime Persecution." The Globe in Mail, Canada's National Newspaper, Saturday, September 9, 1984.

  Yaffee, Sallot and Barbara Yaffee. "Secret Files Reveal Bigotry, Suppression" The Globe in Mail ; Canada's National Newspaper, Saturday, Sept., 4, 1984.

  Young, Phyllis (Ed.) Department of State Bulletin, Vol. 86, No. 2116, Nov. 1986.
• 

  CornerStone

  Hello Kismet,

  In reply to your post, I don't think anyone can justifiably argue that the org does not have the right to use "worldly" avenues to get what it wants, such as the courts. We all know that everyone has to have that right, at least in this country, if some measure of "justice" is to exist here. However, what I believe the orgs critics, JW's and ex-JW's, find hypocritical is the BLATANT double standard the org creates when bashing the worlds governments, Jahovah's superior authorities, and teaching their flock to hate/bash this worlds authorities, while at the same time working side by side in blissful union with the courts, friendly governments local and federal, and any economic interest they have dealings with.

  It was Jesus who taught the "sin" of perpetuating a double standard:

  21Well then, if you teach others, why don’t you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal? 22You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you do it? You condemn idolatry, but do you steal from pagan temples? 23You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it. 24No wonder the Scriptures say, “The world blasphemes the name of God because of you.”

  Romans 2:21-24 NLT

  The org may say that they are just following what the Bible says about worldly governments, that they are controlled by Satan and thus derserve vilification. But is that the whole picture the Bible teaches? No, it is'int. The Bible teaches Christians concerning government officials:

  1I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. As you make your requests, plead for God’s mercy upon them, and give thanks. 2Pray this way for kings and all others who are in authority, so that we can live in peace and quietness, in godliness and dignity.

  1 Timothy 2:1,2 NLT

  Do you think the GB of the WTS sit around once a week and ask Jehovah to protect and keep safe those in charge of governing the peoples? A command the Bible teaches?
  NO!
  They would like nothing more than to see those leaders "crash and burn" so they could dance around the fire with their canes and walkers and feel "vindicated" by Jehovah.
  We know this is true by the venom and vitriol spewed out by almost every watchtower article printed by the org. Rember?, "lick the dust!", remember?

  So because Jesus, the Master, taught what was RIGHT concerning the governments of this world the org maintains a scriptually INDEFENSIBLE position of antaganism and ridicule against the very governments and its agencies it cozies up to on a daily basis. A blatant double standard. If God's "only channel of communication on earth" is who they claim to be, faithful and discreet, then they will resolve this double standard at once.

  Otherwise, it's just one more nail they are pounding on their own casket.

  CornerStone
• 

  mommy

  Flip,
  Thank you for giving me the link to the freeminds sight. What I was referring to was basic day to day laws. Such as, should seatbelts be worn, safety helmets mandatory, taxpayer money to supply water lines for a private business. Of course the Wtbts is going to fight for their rights, they are easily won cases, people have died to make this country this way. I found the following quote interesting and will post it here

  In a letter to Watchtower attorney O.R. Moyle dated February 28, 1937, Rutherford requested that his opponents debate him, and he wanted it to be a "national" affair, not letting his adversaries "sneak off into some isolated corner and spitting out their stuff by an insignificant rooster." In another letter to Moyle, dated April 22, 1939, about the assault cases against Witnesses, he advised that if the Witnesses would "show a little fight and peel someone's head for him" this response may have helped solve their problems then. In another letter of March 31, 1939, Rutherford requested Moyle to file a law suit "in each of everyone of the cases, against the city, against the city manager,... the commissioner, the mayor, and particular the Catholic priest, and every other SOB, that incited the mob, and see if we can't excite these roosters somewhat." True, these letters were written in responses to violence, but this response would hardly reflect the "turn the other cheek," love your enemies philosophy that the Witnesses claim to espouse. Rutherford advocated the opposite of what the Watchtower elsewhere claims to believe. Articles in the Golden Age and Consolation pictured the Catholic priest in the vilest of terms, and numerous illustrations showed especially Catholics in a slanderous light. (Photo copies of these letters appear in Duane Magnani 1987, p. 196, 197, & 245).

  What a pompous fool Rutherford was, but he did know the law, and the law would protect him.
  

  The Watchtower, as the above incident illustrates, caused many of their own problems. Unfortunately, the average Witness suffered because of both the Watchtowers' policies and the reaction of the people and state to these policies.

  The above quote is what I find so disheartening about the whole thing Flip. They are willing to fight a fight that will benefit themselves, as you said earlier. But the people that are actually dieng, being beaten, imprisoned and losing their family, are the real heroes,in my eyes. I say shame on the wtbts who hides behind the skirts of the law only to benefit themselves. But who also willfully admits to breaking the law time and time again, because the "intention" was right. Still sounds hypocritical to me.
  Thanks agan for the link
  wendy
• 

  Francois

  The Society's "strict political neutrality" is nothing more than the society blowing smoke up its own pants.

  Strict political neutrality is itself a political position. Remember the mathematical concept zero? In itself it seems to have no value. Examined further, it is found to give meaning and value to the entire system of mathematics. Many branches of mathematics would be impossible without zero, and you couldn't count beyond nine without it.

  Strict political neutrality - even if those lying bastards on Adams Street really practiced it - is nothing more than a delusion used to tickle the ears of the faithful.

  Francoise
• 

  JWD

  Just to add another twist to the Satan`s court issue which I brought
  up, let me mention a recent policy stated in a letter to the elders
  approx. 2 years ago. It deals with the attitude elders should take
  towards the Japanese police.Namely, a division of the police which is
  called `Koan`(public peace keepers).The Koan is a branch of the police
  which has the duty of maintaining social order.Since the 1995 nerve
  gas attack on a Tokyo subway by a Budhist cult called AUM,the Koan has kept an eye on other `New Religions` and cults. One of the groups
  on their list of potentially disruptive group is the WTS.Hence, the
  WT headquarters here in Japan issued a directive to the elders about
  how to deal with the Koan.In short it says,If at all possible DON`T
  Co-operate.More specifically, it says don`t let them see the inside
  of a KH unless they absolutely insist in which case only allow them
  inside after removing everything from the bulliten board.Also don`t
  give them the names of any members of the congregation.It also contains other various instructions regarding non-co-operation.The
  letter makes the usual references to the present system of things being controlled by Satan as reasons for hiding things from the
  police. Ironically, at the same time the headquarters has launched a
  major image improvement campaign to try and change the public impression of the WT as a cult. The info coming from the WT Public
  Affairs dept. makes the society sound like the most open-minded religion in the world. Talk about double standards!!! JWD
• 

  waiting

  hey y'all,

  The baptist pastor deserved to be found guilty as did the husband. I understand the concern but do not condone kidnapping and forceable confinement to be an acceptable way of dealing with that frustration. - Kismet

  In Steve Hassen's first book (the former Moonie leader who does cult exiting counseling now), he wrote about how some families would kidnap their grown child and then forceably keep them with another person (not a licensed expert) until the person who was in a cult changed their belief.

  In the families' opinion, this forced action was warranted. The Courts disagreed - called it kidnapping. This type of action, according to Hassen, is not viewed as exceptionally successful with cult members. Sometimes it can harm the cult member. And has been determined to be illegal. He does not advocate this behaviour.

  The pastor was found guilty by the Courts of his country.

  I don't see anything wrong with the WTBTS entering this case. This woman had a right to fight for her rights, whatever she, as an individual, choose her rights to be. The pastor did not have the right to keep her hostage.

  waiting
• 

  JWD

  I think I should add some clarification here. `The Pastor` did NOT
  keep her against her will. Any `forced` circumstances were the doing
  of the husband and or family members. The pastor was asked by the family to come and talk to the woman. There are many aspects of this
  particular case which I can`t get into, but these type of interventions in Japan have always been the initiative of family members and any involvement by a pastor or counselor has always been
  at the behest of the family.If you include the Moonies and other groups, this kind of intervention has been used very successfully in
  literally thousands of cases in Japan. The thing that makes it different than the US is the very high value which has been placed
  on families and respect for the parents traditionally here in Japan.
  It is that sense of respect which has caused group members to be
  willing to listen even if it`s against the groups teaching. Naturally
  one of the main statagies of various groups including the WT has been
  to drive a wedge through the family and build a wall between the
  members of the group and the family. The WT here used to call strong
  family affections `dangerous Satanic affections`. JWD