Where Does Watchtower Doctrine Contradict Scripture?

by Vanderhoven7 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • EasyPrompt

    Semantics are interesting, aren't they!

    (Please forgive my grammatically incorrect use of the word "proskyneo" in the expressions below - I think you'll still get the gist of what I mean.🙂)

    I'm not against "proskyneo"-ing Jesus. It reminds me of the Dr. Seuss book "Green Eggs and Ham":

    "Say! I like green eggs and ham!

    I do! I like them, Sam-I-Am!

    And I would eat them in a boat.

    And I would eat them with a goat...

    And I will eat them, in the rain.

    And in the dark. And on a train.

    And in a car. And in a tree.

    They are so good, so good you see!..."

    And I would "proskyneo" Jesus while confessing him as Lord,

    And I would "proskyneo" Jesus while prostrating before him,

    And I will "proskyneo" him while fellowshipping,

    And I do "proskyneo" him when seeking relief from burdens and cares,

    He is so good, so good you see!...

    So let's "proskyneo" away😃!

    If the Bible says to "proskyneo" Jesus, then let's do it.🥰

    "Honor the son, or God will become indignant

    And you will perish from the way."

    How can we best "proskyneo" Jesus?

    "The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, but no man accepts his witness. Whoever has accepted his witness has put his seal to it that God is true. For the one whom God sent speaks the sayings of God, for He does not give the spirit sparingly. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:31-36)

    We "proskyneo" Jesus when we love him and obey him.

    "In answer Jesus said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not observe my words. The word that you are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me. “I have spoken these things to you while I am still with you. But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you. I leave you peace; I give you my peace. I do not give it to you the way that the world gives it. Do not let your hearts be troubled nor let them shrink out of fear. You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am. So now I have told you before it occurs, so that you may believe when it does occur. I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me. But for the world to know that I love the Father, I am doing just as the Father has commanded me to do." (John 14:23-31)

    Jesus told us the Father is greater than he is, thus we can honor Jesus by believing his witness testimony.

    "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

    @Vanderhoven7, Jesus and Jehovah must surely rejoice at how much you "proskyneo" the Lord from the heart.🙂Thank you for being an example of one who loves and respects the Lord and encourages others to show him honor and reverence.

    (And really everybody here who has shown their love for God and desire to worship with spirit and truth.💖)

  • EasyPrompt
    I find Haggai 2:7 and Ezekiel 34 (almost the entire chapter) very encouraging in this respect. And all this, of course, will be through our Lord Jesus.


    The context of Haggai 2:7 is very interesting. Jehovah is talking a lot to Zerubbabel and High Priest Joshua. Then in Zechariah's visions there is a lot about cleansing true worship, and in chapter 4 the vision about the two witnesses standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth. The two witnesses in Zechariah are specific people, Governor Zerubbabel and High Priest Joshua.

    Later in Revelation 11:4, the angel describes the two witnesses that will prophesy during the great tribulation in sackcloth as follows: "These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth," similar to the vision in Zechariah 4 that described the two specific individuals, Zerubbabel and Joshua.

    The following verses in Revelation go on to tell more about these two witnesses: "If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and consumes their enemies. If anyone should want to harm them, this is how he must be killed. These have the authority to shut up the sky so that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish." The actions of these "two witnesses" is similar to Moses and Elijah, two specific individuals who foretold plagues on false religion in past.

    The WTBT$ says that the "two witnesses" stand for all of the anointed ones, but that isn't what scriptures show. The "two witnesses" of Zechariah's vision were two specific individuals, namely Zerubbabel and Joshua. Moses and Elijah were also two specific individuals, not a "class". Thus, the scriptures show that the two witnesses of Revelation will be, not a "class" of people, but two specific individuals of the 144,000. They will be identifiable when the condemnations they preach about false religion come true, because they are speaking in harmony with Christ's direction and, as you said, Jesus will be the one to fulfill God's Word..."And all this, of course, will be through our Lord Jesus."🙂

  • Rattigan350

    "Stephen talked to Jesus. "As they were stoning Stephen, he made this appeal: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”" (Acts 7:59)"

    That is not talking to Jesus. Stephen shouted out that. Jesus didn't answer.

    "Paul talked to Jesus. "He asked: “Who are you, Lord?” He said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."" (Acts 9:5)""

    Yes, there was an actual conversation going on.

    But the point is, Jesus is not the hearer of prayer because he said to approach the father in his, Jesus' name. Prayers are offerings as incense and only the priest offers the incense to God. The people don't offer incense to the priest. The priest is a middleman.

  • EasyPrompt

    Amen, Rattigan350😌.

  • Person

    EasyPrompt, again I agree with you. 💪 I discovered this connection between Haggai and Revelation 11 in 2020, when I woke up to the hypocrisy of WT. I admit at that time I was ntensively studying the Bible. Now I do it less often, perhaps too rarely. But it's nice to know that someone came to similar conclusions. 🙂

  • EasyPrompt

    So, the WTBT$ says Abraham is part of a "class" or "group" that will never hang out with Jehovah personally.

    Here is what the Bible really teaches...

    Abraham already hung out with Jehovah personally. Abraham wasn't anointed. Abraham wasn't even baptized. Abraham didn't even know about Jesus. Abraham fought in battles and killed people. Abraham had sexual relations with another woman besides his wife. And yet Abraham was Jehovah's Friend.

    Genesis 18

    "Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day."

    This wasn't a "vision."

    "He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground. Then he said: “Jehovah, if I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant. Please, let a little water be brought and have your feet washed; then recline under the tree. Seeing that you have come here to your servant, let me bring a piece of bread so that you may refresh yourselves. Then you may go on your way.”"

    Abraham was talking to Jehovah. It wasn't just an angel. The other two guys were angels, but Abraham recognized Jehovah. Abraham knew it was Jehovah coming to visit in a materialized body. (Can the One who designed the eye not see? Can the One who designed a body not build a body to visit in? Come on, people, why does it seem so impossible for Jehovah to do the extraordinary? It's right in the book...)

    "At this they said: “All right. You may do as you have spoken.” So Abraham hurried to the tent to Sarah and said: “Quick! Get three measures of fine flour, knead the dough, and make loaves of bread.” Next Abraham ran to the herd and chose a tender and good young bull. He gave it to the attendant, who hurried to prepare it. He then took butter and milk and the young bull that he had prepared and set the food before them. Then he stood by them under the tree as they were eating."

    So Jehovah ate with Abraham, just like later in a similar way Jesus ate with his friends -after Jesus died and then was resurrected as a spirit creature then Jesus materialized a body so he could eat with the disciples. A spirit person can materialize a body and eat with people.

    "They said to him: “Where is your wife Sarah?” He replied: “Here in the tent.” So one of them continued: “I will surely return to you next year at this time, and look! your wife Sarah will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the tent entrance, which was behind the man. Abraham and Sarah were old, being advanced in years. Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah began to laugh to herself, saying: “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I really have this pleasure?” Then Jehovah said to Abraham: “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Am I really going to give birth even though I am old?’ Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah? I will return to you next year at this appointed time, and Sarah will have a son.” But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh!” for she was afraid. At this he said: “Yes! You did laugh.”"

    If Jehovah can raise the dead, if Jehovah can make it so an old lady can conceive, then certainly Jehovah can eat a meal with his kids on earth. That's a piece of cake in comparison.

    "When the men got up to leave and looked down toward Sodʹom, Abraham was walking with them to escort them. Jehovah said: “Am I keeping hidden from Abraham what I am going to do? Why, Abraham is surely going to become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed by means of him. For I have come to know him in order that he may command his sons and his household after him to keep Jehovah’s way by doing what is right and just, so that Jehovah may bring about what he has promised concerning Abraham.”"

    Abraham was just a lowly guy. He was living in a tent. He was out in the wilderness a lot of the time. But Jehovah knew exactly where Abraham was, and Jehovah told him a lot of cool stuff about the future. Jehovah hasn't changed. Jehovah knows where His friends are, even when they are out "in the wilderness" of this world somewhere, seemingly not part of any city or congregation of people.

    "Then Jehovah said: “The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” Then the men left from there and went toward Sodʹom, but Jehovah remained with Abraham."

    The account about Sodom shows that the other two angels proceeded to visit Lot, but Jehovah stayed and hung out with Abraham for awhile longer. The Bible says God made man in His image. Man is made in God's image. The reason we enjoy the earth is because Our Father enjoys it. He made us like a chip off the ol' block. We were designed to hang out with Him in the garden. (That's part of the sacred secret.)

    "Then Abraham approached and said: “Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are 50 righteous men within the city. Will you, then, sweep them away and not pardon the place for the sake of the 50 righteous who are inside it? It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?” Then Jehovah said: “If I find in Sodʹom 50 righteous men in the city, I will pardon the whole place for their sake.” But Abraham again responded: “Please, here I have presumed to speak to Jehovah, whereas I am dust and ashes. Suppose the 50 righteous should lack five. Because of the five will you destroy the whole city?” To this he said: “I will not destroy it if I find there 45.” But yet again he spoke to him and said: “Suppose 40 are found there.” He answered: “I will not do it for the sake of the 40.” But he continued: “Jehovah, please, do not become hot with anger, but let me go on speaking: Suppose only 30 are found there.” He answered: “I will not do it if I find 30 there.” But he continued: “Please, here I have presumed to speak to Jehovah: Suppose only 20 are found there.” He answered: “I will not destroy it for the sake of the 20.” Finally he said: “Jehovah, please, do not become hot with anger, but let me speak just once more: Suppose only ten are found there.” He answered: “I will not destroy it for the sake of the ten.” When Jehovah finished speaking to Abraham, he went his way and Abraham returned to his place."

    Do you like talking to your friends? Jehovah is cool. He's easy to be around. Jehovah knows where the right-hearted ones are in all the earth, and He won't destroy right-hearted ones. But He will destroy the wicked institutions that bring reproach on His Name and hurt people.

    There are right-hearted ones in the borg still, and Jehovah knows where they are. There are right-hearted ones outside the borg, and in other religions, and non-religious right-hearted ones. Jehovah knows where all of them are, and He will do the right thing. He's Jehovah. If He was friends with Abraham before Abraham was baptized and when Abraham was still a warrior type sleeping with a woman who wasn't his wife, then Jehovah will certainly take into account the cultural issues of our day and peoples' circumstances and read hearts and figure out what is righteous.

    Anyway, when the WTBT$ says that Abraham and "the great crowd of other sheep" or whoever won't hang out with Jehovah because "only the anointed 144,000 in heaven will hang out with Jehovah", the WTBT$ is full of baloney. Jehovah was in the garden walking with Adam and Eve. He'll be walking on the earth again with His kids. He's the Best Dad.

    "Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah?"

  • lastmanstanding

    The 120 in the upper room at Pentecost. It never happened.

    Don't freak out. And it’s not only the dubs that are wrong. It’s the rest of them all that teach it.

    It is quite simple to prove it out. I could post a 3 page dissertation that I wrote 20 plus yrs back, but I won’t. Those that want to know the truth need to do the work.

    Heres then breadcrumbs. Use the Jewish calendar and place on each day and week the events described in the biblical account. And there it is. It never happened, there was never 120 persons in an upper room.

    And quite Frankly it was technically impossible to cram that many persons into such a tiny room for one, and the construction of the building would not have supported the weight.

    For the Passover Jesus needed “a large upper room” just for the 12. Can you imagine ten times that many… and living there for an entire week… that’s right. Go back to the calendar.

  • EasyPrompt

    "dissertation - a long essay on a particular subject, especially one written as a requirement for the Doctor of Philosophy degree"

    Here is something the WTBT$ does that is not in harmony with scripture: making special "schools" (Elder School, Pioneer School, Branch School, Bethel School, whatever...) the same way the scribes and Pharisees did, and claiming that a person is uneducated in God's ways unless they have attended such schools. (There are "Pharisees-type" people who are not in the WTBT$ who also adhere to this kind of thinking...) It is not wrong to go to a school. Education is a good thing. But it is the assumption that a person cannot understand or preach or be close to God unless they attended a specific seminary/monastery/GileadSchool/university/etc. that is a fallacy.

    Jesus did not attend any of those places. Neither did the apostles.

    Jesus had something to say about those who wanted to "teach" for their own glory's sake...

    "They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers."

    “Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in robes and who love greetings in the marketplaces and front seats in the synagogues and the most prominent places at evening meals, and who devour the houses of the widows and for show make long prayers. These will receive a more severe judgment.”"

    What is the difference between a teaching session by Jesus and a "dissertation" by a scribe?

    "When Jesus finished these sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching, for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes."

    "and they were astounded at his way of teaching, because he spoke with authority"

    "When the festival was half over, Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality. Whoever speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him, this one is true and there is no unrighteousness in him."

    Jesus spoke from the heart and he knew what he was talking about. Jehovah's holy spirit gave him words of truth and power. His motive was to glorify God. When he opened his mouth, he shared the good treasure of his heart.

    The scribes (who sought their own glory) spoke from the other end, and they were full of it.

    Jesus told us he would give us what we need when we need it.

    "...the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you."

    "...I will give you words and wisdom that all your opposers together will not be able to resist or dispute."

    (@lastmanstanding, - your math doesn't add up.🙂 I Herd what you said, but I think maybe you'd better Splane it for us because your theory sounds kinda like that 1914 overlapping generations thing - a make believe story.)

  • Linda14

    1. Babylon the Great is a CITY, not any empire of false religion.

    Rev 17:18

    18 And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

    2. There is no ongoing issue/contest of who rules better between Satan and Jehovah.

    The destruction on Noah's day would render any such claim nonsensical. Secondly, the fact that judgment was held after the sin, with the serpent being destined for future destruction (Gen 3:15), is an indication that there was no contest. You don't issue judgment before someone begins to prove his point, do you?

    3. Salvation is by faith in Jesus. Either a witness or in another church, with faith in Jesus and righteous act, Jehovah can save you.

    4. Miracle didn't cease after the death of the apostles. There is no basis for that lie.

  • road to nowhere
    road to nowhere

    The teaching is jehova is unchangeable but they constantly change what He supposedly said

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