A few in military refuse to fight 'wrong war'

by Trauma_Hound 128 Replies latest members politics

• 

  Realist

  thichi,

  if you would read what i actually said you would know that i did not claim that vox populi is a measure of which side is right or wrong. the discussion was whether this war is viewed as legal or not. the great majority of people (including most experts i have heard) believe this war is illegal and the US is breaking international law.

  you can choose to believe that most people around the world back the US just as you can believe there are little green man on mars. that you are wrong is however painfully obvious to everybody who has access to non filtered information.

  just in case you trust gallup:

  http://www.gallup-international.com/surveys.htm

  added:

  and the states that follow the US do so without any pressure of course !?
• 

  dubla

  The problem is that sometimes people do not want to discuss things, they will not accept when someone makes a valid point or something that is difficult to answer (and frequently just ignore it
• 

  Utopian Reformist

  As a former marine (Beirut / Grenada / Panama):

  I believe anyone who joins the military VOLUNTARILY is taking a very serious risk with their future and their freedom. For example, if many of us had thoroughly investigated the WTBS, its policies, history, procedures, we might not have been seduced. It is the same with joining the american military. I would advise anyone to research the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), the JAG Manual (Judge Advocate General) and learn what the rules and policies are in writing BEFORE making a long-term commitment.

  Although in basic traiing, recruits are taught the code of conduct (abbreviated) and other credos, they are designed to prepare for war. They do not cover in detail, the rules for everyday life in the "service". Therefore, until a situation occurs, (trouble, violations, etc) a military person finds themsleves unprepared and without advance proactive guidance to conduct themselves in administrative situations.

  A marine corporal appeared on ABC this morning. Her husband is in Kuwait. She has a five month old infant, and no available family to take temporary custody while she deploys to the gulf. So, she refused to be deployed. The "corps" told her she can place her infant son up for adoption in the meantime or accept an admiistrative discharge and end her career. How's that for sacrifice, patriotism, and all the "rah-rah rally-round-the-flag" and "support-the-troops" rhetoric?

  If you enlist, and you remain uninformed, and you are surprised with wartime situations, facing deployment, and you have a change of heart, I feel sorry for you. It is your responsibility to thoroughly research and understand before you sign the dotted line. Once you give up civilian rights under the Bill of Rights and accept the UCMJ, you are now second class citizens and property of the Department of Defense.

  That is why they do not simply "cut" your time short and let you "off the hook" with a favorable discharge when your "conscience" is suddenly awaken. They have the right to do so and no one can force you to join. Once you commit, it's too legit to quit!

  I agree that the DOD should not lose the thousands of dollars spent in special training, post-term college benefits if someone deviates from their original position. But, I don't agree with applying bullish administrative pressure, humiliation tactics, and coersion to force compliance when an individual changes their mind. Just reassign them, work with them in a different capacity or let them out gently without publicity.
• 

  Simon

  Just going back to an earlier point that was made about the USA not being a totalitarian regime and not expecting troops to fight to the death. I take it to mean also that the USA would not knowingly send it's military personel to almost certain death for no benefit.

  ... something has been rattling round my head for a while:

  I can't find a link about it but I remember watching a programme about the Vietnam war (the last major conflict that the USA was involved in ... if people claim that this one is a continuation of the 1990 war)

  In it, there was a bit about some general who publicly promised on TV that they were going to hit some base or air defenses of the enemy. Not only were they going to hit it but I think he gave a deadline.

  Now, of course, the enemy replaced all the targets with wooden cutouts and littered the flight corridor with anti-aircraft guns and the USA commanders knew this. But because they had said it on TV and didn't want to loose face, they still sent the pilots to attack these bits of wood. I believe they were all shot down .

  I'm sorry I don't have the name of the place or the event but it was a 'big event' and changed a lot of public opinion I believe. Does anyone else know the thing I'm talking about? It was on a documentary / series about the Vietname war some time ago.

  The point is, anyone who believes that the Military will always do the right thing and should be obeyed no matter what is putting themselves in great danger if they follow what they say. The only reason we have wars is that too many people are willing to follow and not question.
• 

  Utopiano Reformato

  I long for the humiliation, exposure, and disgrace of the BUSH administration. Until BUSH, CHENEY, RUMSFELD, ASHCROFT, WOLFOWITZ, ROWE are removed from authority, the eventual decline of America will continue, ultimately leading to a major military defeat and possibly foreign invasion. They are criminals and should be handed over the ICC. I wish Kofi Annan would introduce a resolution condemning the war and take action against the coalition with an ultimatum, leave Iraq or else! Hopefully North Korea, China & Russia can vocalize their anti-BUSH positions and draw serious attention from this administration of idiotic cowards.
• 

  sandy

  Yes the Government is not perfect and they do lie to us. All of us (well maybe most of us) Pro-War or not can make valid points why this war is right or wrong.

  But, if you join the Military you have to know that there is a possibility of actually going to war.

  When you sign up you know that. And if your beliefs change later then fine. Just be aware of the consequences.

  I think these people are cowards for saying they will refuse to fight if they are called. They know what they are doing when they sign up. They know that war is controversial and not always justified.

  When they sign up they know they may have to fight for an un-justified cause.

  So kick these sorry people out and make them repay the military whatever they took and then fine them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  We are in America, this is a FREE COUNTRY!!! Bottom Line again, THEY KNOW BETTER!!!!!!! THEY SIGNED UP FOR IT!
• 

  Realist

  utopian reformato,

  is it possible that you live indeed in an utopian world?

  the bush admin. will not be exposed and the US will never loose a war. and it doesn't matter who gets elected ...in principle its always the same...some admin. do it in a more hidden way such as clinton ...some do it in a more obvious way like bush.

  regarding kofi annan, you forget that he was installed by the US after they demanded boutros boutros has to go.
• 

  plmkrzy

  I must be the only one who noticed that all the soldiers being killed are, or seem to be, 19 and 20 years old. AND either left behind a pregnant wife or have a new baby at home they never saw. My nephew is over there and I don't know if I will ever see him again. My worst fear is that he would become a prisoner of war.

  There is a great big world entered into when war becomes something real, and no longer what it was in the mind of a young idealistic man and woman, joining the military, fresh out of high school or Jr. college, ready to fight for thier country. Until we are over there, with a gun in our hands, pointed at someone, all we can do is talk shit and try to sound noble while we do.

  Does anyone else know the thing I'm talking about? It was on a documentary / series about the Vietname war some time ago.

  raises hand I DO! I DO! I know exactly what you're talking about, but I can't remember it either.

  LOL!

  I just hate it when that happens

  plum
• 

  dubla

  The point is, anyone who believes that the Military will always do the right thing and should be obeyed no matter what

  and again (this is a repeat), no one on this thread has said that. still trying to compare us to the nazis simon? i like how you ignored all points made in response to your earlier posts, only to return with a story from vietnam in an attempt to drive home your original argument....crafty.

  aa
• 

  dubla

  simon-
  

  upon reviewing this thread again, your latest post is even more laughable. i was wrong when i said you were trying to drive home your original point, as this was actually closer to your original point....
  

  Surely USA soldiers should be just as capable and brave enough to do the right thing too ... or are they in more of a totalitarian regime?

  ....that basically its okay for soldiers to disobey orders if they feel its the "right thing" to do. but in reading your vietnam example, how does it fit? would it have been apparent that going on this air raid was the "wrong" thing to do? with your logic here, i guess the only "right" thing to do would be to disobey every order, in fear that your commanding officer might be sending you into a lions den. no, your latest example only drives home a moot point you tried to make about following orders "no matter what"....and since not one poster has argued in favor of this "no matter what" mentality that you describe, its a completely useless argument on your part....unless your intent is to argue with the wind.

  aa