It's right there in our faces, how could we NOT see it?

by NikL 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • NikL

    I know there have been many MANY posts on here over the years on the deity of Jesus.

    I am submitting this one because I am feeling a little confused.

    The thing is, I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer and I know this. So when I am going through my bible reading (To all you haters, yes I still do it) I see so many scriptures that just fly in the face of everything the JWs teach about Jesus.

    I begin to wonder if indeed I am diseased in the mind ,as they will try to paint me, because it seems so plain to me.

    I never even gave it a though growing up as to if Jesus and GOD were equal. I just didn't.

    Now when I read scriptures like Philippians 9...

    9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord+ to the glory of God the Father.

    The foot note after "ground " takes us to John 5:22-23

    • 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son,+ 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.+

    The footnote after the word "name" in Philippians 9:9 links to a couple of scriptures...

      • Acts 4:12
      • 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name+ under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”+

      • Ephesians 1:20, 21
      • 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand+ in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named,+ not only in this system of things* but also in that to come.

    Every other name that is named? As in Jehovah? This all from the JW.ORG Bible on their website.

    Can they REALLY read this and not see what I am seeing?

    I have not been a believer in JW theology for years and it's only recently I've decided to get reacquainted with the bible and it's message. Maybe someone who has a better understanding of JW theology can explain how they can NOT see this. Or maybe show me where I am mistaken.

    If I was just hanging around bullshitting with one of my JW acquaintances and casually brought this up, what would they say?

  • waton

    they would say: " the knee is bent in the name of Jesus, but bent to the father, but in Christ's name." you could answer, yeah, judgement and salvation through Jesus, genouflexing,-- all because of the talking snake.

  • Aroq

    You are not mistaken. Cog Diss is what its called. The wt has tricked the jws into believing what they tell them. Then it becomes the emperors new clothes, no one wants to tell, because then they will be the outsider.

  • cofty
  • baker

    If you really want to look into this, get the inter linear copy and look up philipians 9:9 and actually see where they added the word "other" at least 4 times to utterly change the meaning. In the old NWT they used brackets with the word "other", but in the new one, "other' is used as if it had been there for 2000 years. Deceitful

  • Steel

    About a year old I got into the concept of Jesus in the old testament. I never really thought of Jesus in the old testament. I actually watched a debate between a former Muslim named Sam Shamoon ( I think I spelled it right ) and Islamic cleric. It kind of turned me on to researching the idea. Its all on youtube.

    When you really dig into the guts of the old testament and see all the weird stuff like god speaking to god or god is invisible but he appears in physical manifestion . Its really hard to describe and I don't claim to be an expert on the subject but there is a lot more going on than the WTS would like us to believe.

    Once you start understanding this stuff and I am not too sure if it can fully be understood by finite human brains, and what is being referenced in the new testament, it really is kind of cool. If anything it really shows you the dishonestly of the nwt.

  • Crazyguy

    Jesus is the new god being pushed by the New Testament writers there is even scriptures stating he is god. The thing is christianity was never really monotheistic until much later, the son is like the father later becoming the father or similar to the father i.e. The trinity is born. But the trinity is not new either goes back to ancient Egypt and Sumeria. The thing to remember is jesus is the new god in town, same as the older gods but with a new name and he is the god the Romans after 325ce pushed on everyone as the states endorsed religion. So yes Jesus is the god we are truly to worship if your a Christian.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    Every other name that is named? As in Jehovah? This all from the JW.ORG Bible on their website. Can they REALLY read this and not see what I am seeing?

    In a word, yes! The early Christians viewed Jesus and Yahweh as the same personality. When man fell, the Father could no longer communicate directly with man. Many modern Christians freely acknowledge that Jesus was the great mediator between his Father and mankind. But some, like the JWs, think this only kicked in around 33 A.D. Yet Jesus said, overlooking Jerusalem: "Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets that are sent to them, how oft would I have gathered thee together, as a hen gatherest its chicks, yet ye would not!"

    But how could he have gathered the city and its inhabitants together had he not been the great Jehovah, the God of Israel, as he began doing some 1850 years after the Romans dispersed them? Or after they were dispersed circa 600 B.C.? (Or was he speaking only of those who lived from 1-33 A.D.? Doesn't make much sense if that were the case, or if it had been Michael the Archangel making such a statement! How would Michael have had the authority to gather Judah throughout history both before and after the times of Jesus?)

    So the name of Jesus also is the name of Jehovah, and Yahweh, and Jeshua! Unknowingly, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society chose the premortal name of Jesus. Both Yahweh and Jesus was the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Both were the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the great Judge of mankind (as you noted). When Moses spoke to Yahweh, he wasn't speaking to the Father, but to the great Mediator between God and man. This is because Jesus is both God and Man. It was the premortal Jesus who gave the stone tablets to Moses and who appeared to the seventy elders of Israel.

    So despite all the early Christian extra-biblical writings and the Jewish writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the JWs have continued to believe their adventist roots. They'll never change their views and I'm surprised they never accepted the Saturday-Sabbath doctrine that also seeped into the movement.

    You'll never get a JW admitting or acknowledging that Jesus is God in any way, shape or form, even after John pretty much spells it out in his Apocalypse (Revelation).

  • shepherdless

    Thanks NikL for raising this.

    As someone who has never been a JW, this is something that has always bothered me as well. I can't see how anyone reading the bible on its own could come to the conclusion that Jesus is merely an agent or representative of Jehovah. Yet JW's seem so certain and confident on the issue.

  • slimboyfat

    Because that's exactly how many parts of the NT present the situation:

    Acts 2:22 Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

    If what the writer of Acts really meant to say was that Jesus was himself God, that sure is a funny way of putting it.

    Even in the gospel of John with its high Christology this is spelled out:

    John 5:36 "I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish--the very works that I am doing--testify that the Father has sent me.

    John 13:16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

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