Maybe I'm missing something about this particular Creationist's arguement..

by Abaddon 69 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Abaddon

  Jerry;

  Intelligent Design theory, on the other hand, is not spurred by this. One, at least some of the molecular machines that build the structures we actually see, i.e. bones, hearts, brains, are similar to other machines that we know, ie, removing a single part nullifies the machine. Therefore, it is unlikely to have developed piecemeal. Two, using statistics with the various molecular systems that are multifaceted, such as coagulation of blood, one comes to a conclusion that reduces the probability of nature's cellular machinery to have developed by random chance to as close to zero as one can get.

  Oh lordy, irreducable complexity. Sorry, this guy's arguments are rather simplistic.... Irreducable complexity is a weak arguement that works very well on non-scientists (which is how it gets past school boards et. al. as part of ID), as they don't realise the gross simplistic nature of the viewpoint.

  I would rather you answer some of the issues I've raised in the past before going onto another topic, please, or discuss the evolution of mind, as it would be far more interesting.
• 

  Jerry Bergman

  I assume that your have read all of these books?

  Listmania! Design Arguments for God (including intelligent design arguments) by Peter S. Williams, MPhil E-mail this list to a friend 1. DARWINS BLACK BOX: THE BIOCHEMICAL CHALLENGE TO EVOLUTION by Michael Behe (Author) (Paperback - March 1998) Average Customer Review: List Price: $14.00 Buy new: $11.20 You Save: $2.80 (20%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: Catholic Biochemist Michael J. Behe argues that 'irriducibly complex' biomolecular systems are best explained by the hypothesis of intelligent design 2. Science and Evidence for Design in the Universe by Ignatius Press, et al (Paperback) Average Customer Review: List Price: $12.95 Buy new: $10.36 You Save: $2.59 (20%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: Three leading lights of the I.D movement, (Behe, Dembski & Meyer) provide perhaps the best mid-level introduction to the argument from specified and irriducible complexity, and the anthropic argument 3. How Blind Is the Watchmaker?: Nature's Design & the Limits of Naturalistic Science by Neil Broom, William A. Dembski (Paperback - May 2001) Average Customer Review: List Price: $13.00 Buy new: $10.40 You Save: $2.60 (20%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: Revised edition of Broom's anti-reductionistic book makes the connection to I.D 4. Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science & Theology by William A. Dembski, Michael J. Behe (Hardcover - November 1999) Average Customer Review: List Price: $22.00 Buy new: $15.40 You Save: $6.60 (30%) Usually ships in 2 to 3 days Peter S. Williams's comments: Dembski's intelligent design argument with historical and theological perspectives 5. No Free Lunch: Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased Without Intelligence by William A. Dembski (Hardcover - December 2001) Average Customer Review: List Price: $35.00 Buy new: $35.00 Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: Dembski's latest 6. Mere Creation; Science, Faith & Intelligent Design by William A. Dembski (Editor), et al (Paperback - September 1998) Average Customer Review: List Price: $25.00 Buy new: $17.50 You Save: $7.50 (30%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: A good collection of papers from an I.D conference, some harder going than others 7. Signs of Intelligence: Understanding Intelligent Design by William A. Dembski (Editor), James M. Kushiner (Editor) (Paperback - March 2001) Average Customer Review: List Price: $13.99 Buy new: $11.19 You Save: $2.80 (20%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: A good primer on intelligent design theory 8. Evolution: A Theory in Crisis by Michael Denton (Paperback) Average Customer Review: List Price: $19.95 Buy new: $13.97 You Save: $5.98 (30%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: The agnostic Denton prefigures many of the themes of contemporary I.D 9. Nature's Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe by Michael Denton Average Customer Review: Out of Print--Limited Availability Peter S. Williams's comments: Denton brings the anthropic argument from cosmology into the biological realm 10. The Wedge of Truth: Splitting the Foundations of Naturalism by Phillip E. Johnson (Hardcover - August 2000) Average Customer Review: List Price: $18.00 Buy new: $12.60 You Save: $5.40 (30%) Usually ships in 2 to 3 days Peter S. Williams's comments: In my opinion this is Johnson's best book 11. Scaling the Secular City: A Defense of Christianity by J. P. Moreland (Paperback - July 1987) Average Customer Review: List Price: $16.99 Buy new: $11.89 You Save: $5.10 (30%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: A fine book from a fine philosopher which includes a fine chapter on the argument from design 12. The Creation Hypothesis: Scientific Evidence for an Intelligent Designer by J. P. Moreland (Editor), Phillip E. Johnson (Designer) (Paperback - March 1994) Average Customer Review: List Price: $17.00 Buy new: $11.90 You Save: $5.10 (30%) Usually ships in 2 to 3 days Peter S. Williams's comments: Particularly good on the philosophy of science and the scientific status of design 13. Three Views on Creation and Evolution by James Porter Moreland (Editor), et al (Paperback) Average Customer Review: List Price: $17.99 Buy new: $12.59 You Save: $5.40 (30%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: The best debate between Christians with different views about evolution 14. God Chance and Necessity by Keith Ward (Paperback) Average Customer Review: List Price: $16.95 Buy new: $11.87 You Save: $5.08 (30%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: A powerful philosophical critique of the 'new materialism' of Dawkins, Atkins et al, advocates a 'soft' form of theistic evolution 15. The Existence of God by Richard. Swinburne (Paperback - May 1991) Average Customer Review: List Price: $41.95 Buy new: $41.95 Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: Swinburne's landmark cumulative and inductive case for God, includes discussion of design and anthropic arguments 16. Is There a God? by Richard Swinburne (Paperback - January 1997) Average Customer Review: List Price: $15.95 Buy new: $15.95 Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: Swinburne's more accessible digest of his 'The Existence of God' 17. God, Reason and Theistic Proofs (Reason and Religion) by Stephen T. Davis (Paperback - December 1997) Average Customer Review: List Price: $26.00 Buy new: $26.00 Usually ships in 5 to 6 days Peter S. Williams's comments: A good overview of the issues 18. Science & Its Limits: The Natural Sciences in Christian Perspective by Del Ratzsch, Delvin Lee Philosophy of Science Ratzsch (Paperback - February 2000) Average Customer Review: List Price: $14.00 Buy new: $11.20 You Save: $2.80 (20%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: Excellent introduction to the philosophy of science and design 19. MIND OF GOD: THE SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR A RATIONAL WORLD by Paul Davies (Author) (Paperback - March 1993) Average Customer Review: List Price: $14.00 Buy new: $11.20 You Save: $2.80 (20%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: Non-Christian physicist concludes we are meant to be here 20. Belief in God in an Age of Science by John C. Polkinghorne (Paperback - October 1999) Average Customer Review: List Price: $9.95 Buy new: $9.95 Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: Sir John Polkinghorne FRS is an eminent Cambridge particle physicist turned theologian 21. What's Darwin Got to Do With It: A Friendly Conversation About Evolution by Robert C. Newman (Editor), et al (Paperback - January 2000) Average Customer Review: List Price: $10.00 Buy new: $8.00 You Save: $2.00 (20%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: A Cartoon introduction to the scientific legitimacy and arguments of intelligent design 22. The Evidential Power of Beauty: Science and Theology Meet by Thomas Dubay (Paperback - September 1999) Average Customer Review: List Price: $14.95 Buy new: $10.47 You Save: $4.48 (30%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: The connection between design and beauty 23. Philosophicl Theolgy: Volume 2 by Tennant (Author) Out of Print--Limited Availability Peter S. Williams's comments: Includes Tennant's now classic 'wider teleology' approach to design, including the aesthetic design argument 24. Why Believe? God Exists: Rethinking the Case for God and Christianity by Terry L. Miethe, Gary R. Habermas (Paperback - February 1999) Average Customer Review: List Price: $24.99 Buy new: $24.99 Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: A general apologetic that includes a section on evolution and design 25. Unshakable Foundations: Contemporary Answers to Crucial Questions About the Christian Faith by Peter Bocchino, Norman L. Geisler (Paperback - February 2001) Average Customer Review: List Price: $16.99 Buy new: $11.89 You Save: $5.10 (30%) Usually ships in 24 hours Peter S. Williams's comments: A Classical apologetic that argues for progressive creationism

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• 

  Jerry Bergman

  This book is a must to understand ID. (some would argue critical)

  Doubts about Darwin
  A History of Intelligent Design
  Woodward, Thomas
  
  ISBN: 0801064430 Price: US$19.99 Trim Size: 6 x 9 Pages:304 Release Date:Jul.
  03
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  Deep in the halls of scientific academia, a debate has been quietly raging
  between Darwinian macroevolution and the theory of intelligent design. This
  challenge to scientific naturalism has life-changing effects on the
  fundamental cultural story of humanity; it asks what it means to be human and
  questions whether or not we have a purpose and a destiny.
  
  Beginning with Michael Denton's revolutionary book, Evolution: A Theory in
  Crisis, author Thomas Woodward follows the key players and confrontations
  that are creating a paradigm shift in both the scientific and public arenas.
  He shows that the erosion of certainty about the factual truth of Darwinism
  is the product of a rhetorical onslaught-the persuasive case-making by highly
  accredited critics like Phillip Johnson, Michael Behe, and William Dembski.
  
  Accessible and compelling, Doubts about Darwin opens a dramatic door to moral
  and intellectual reformation.
  
  Author info
  
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  --
  Thomas Woodward (Ph.D., University of South Florida) is a professor at
  Trinity College of Florida, where he teaches the history of science,
  communication, and systematic theology. He is founder and director of the C.
  S. Lewis Society and lectures in universities on scientific, apologetic, and
  religious topics. He is an avid astronomer and has been published in Moody
  magazine and Christianity Today.
  
  Endorsements
  
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  --
  "Because of intelligent design's snowballing popularity, critics are now
  eager to rewrite its history. Thomas Woodward's rhetorical history of the
  Intelligent Design movement therefore comes at an opportune time, masterfully
  disentangling the scientific, philosophical, and cultural impulses that drive
  the movement." --William A. Dembski, author of No Free Lunch
  
  "Thomas Woodward's Doubts about Darwin is a fascinating, faithful, and
  trenchant analysis of the critical role of rhetoric in the rise of the modern
  intelligent design movement. To understand the public battle over evolution,
  you must read this book." --Michael J. Behe, Department of Biology, Lehigh
  University
  
  
  "Tom Woodward distinguishes himself as a valuable resource for understanding
  the development of the Intelligent Design movement. He combines the scholar's
  tools with a knack for narrative that results in a fascinating account of
  what could be the most important science drama of our times." --Ravi
  Zacharias, international speaker, author
  
  
  "Tom Woodward's book--a vigorous and lively history of the Intelligent Design
  movement--is must reading for parents, educators, scientists, and informed
  citizens. Woodward provides crucial insights into the rhetorical dynamics of
  the Design Movement and the reasons why it resonates both with scholars and
  the broader public." --John Angus Campbell, professor of communication,
  Memphis State University
  
  
  "Tom Woodward has presented a remarkable account of the uses of rhetoric in
  assaulting the pretensions of the neo-Darwinist fraternity. Earlier
  commentators had questioned the dogmatic certainties of Darwinian
  macro-evolution. The orthodoxies of random selection had long been enshrined
  in virtually every biology textbook. Alas, the early critics made no
  impression whatever on the teaching of biology. They were dismissed by the
  academic evolutionists with much the same condescension that the clergy and
  the English establishment displayed a century earlier in responding to Huxley
  and the other defenders of evolution. Doubts About Darwin is a delightful
  chronicle of the ways a small group of doubters are reshaping the debate and
  bringing out the inadequacies of natural selection to the general public.
  Doubters and believers alike ought to read Doubts About Darwin. It has much
  to teach them." --Murray Eden, Ph.D., professor emeritus at M.I.T.
  
  
  "The classic history of science as a problem-solving, rhetorical enterprise
  is Martin J. S. Rudwick's The Great Devonian Controversy. Tom Woodward's
  Doubts About Darwin contributes a new chapter in this history by analyzing
  the current Intelligent Design controversy. Anyone interested in evolutionary
  theory will profit from reading this book." --Walter Fisher, professor of
  communication, University of Southern California
  
  
  "Doubts about Darwin provides the first comprehensive treatment of the rise
  of intelligent design theory, perhaps the most challenging intellectual
  movement to come out of the United States in the last decade. Here Woodward
  tells the story of disparate scholars equally dissatisfied with Neo-Darwinian
  dogmatism who band together and slowly but surely shift the burden of proof
  in their favour-and toward a more open science. Adept in the relevant
  science, philosophy, and rhetoric, Woodward gives an inside view of this
  increasingly visible scientific revolution. The mechanics detailed in
  Woodward's story should inspire others who have wondered how learned
  outsiders can bring about change in the very heartland of scientific
  authority." --Steve Fuller, University of Warwick, England, author of Thomas
  Kuhn: A Philosophical History for Our Times
  
  
  "Know anyone who's curious about the Intelligent Design controversy? What's
  the fuss about? Who are the key players? What are they saying and why? Doubts
  About Darwin is not only the best available guide to the ID movement's brief
  but eventful history; it's probably also the best available primer on the
  issues and arguments at stake in the debate." --Duane Litfin, president,
  Wheaton College
  
  
  "Doubts about Darwin is the first book to apply current rhetorical theory to
  elucidate the fray between neo-Darwinian antagonists and ID. The book
  presents a scholarly analysis of ID's efforts to take a legitimate scientific
  position, and its detractors' efforts to debunk the movement. Tom Woodward
  has skillfully fashioned a readable, balanced, and timely contribution that
  should aid ID supporters and detractors alike in understanding the broader
  narrative setting in which the clash between Darwinism and ID is being played
  out." --Mark Whalon, professor in the Center of Applied Plant Research,
  Michigan State University
• 

  Realist

  jerry,

  a) as we said already in anotherthread....the 95% are in regard to the entire genome....not just the coding sequences!

  b) also as stated already somewhere else...probability calculations are rediculous if one doesn'T know the underlying concepts.

  c) right away the first book in your list was refuteted already by experts in the field....if you are interested do a google search.
• 

  Jerry Bergman

  Another must read.

  Darwin's Proof The Triumph of Religion Over Science Hunter, Cornelius G.ISBN: 1587430568 Price: US $17.99 Trim Size: 6 x 9 Pages:176 Release Date:May
  03
  
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  He who controls the definitions controls the debate, and when the debate
  turns to evolution, the Darwinists are certainly in control. Defining
  evolution as scientific fact, they dismiss alternative explanations. Their
  definition, however, is incomplete. According to Cornelius Hunter, "there is
  much more in Darwin's theory than just science." In Darwin's Proof, Hunter
  confronts Darwin's theory of evolution head-on, revealing its scientific,
  philosophical, and theological limitations.
  
  
  Following the success of Darwin's God, Hunter delves more deeply into the
  issues raised in that book. He exposes the weaknesses in evolution's
  scientific "proof" and reveals its philosophical contradiction: Darwinists
  vehemently claim that religion plays no role in their theory, but they rely
  on assumptions of God's character in order to argue that he couldn't have
  made this world. And given that creation is not possible, they argue,
  evolution is then the only other alternative.
  
  
  Hunter shows how Western religious traditions in the centuries leading up to
  Darwin laid the foundation for evolution. Natural theology, in particular,
  promoted an unscriptural doctrine of God that ultimately led to a distancing
  of God from creation and Darwin's theory of evolution. Finally, Hunter offers
  readers a reason for hope-everyone agrees that the world is magnificent yet
  marred, yet only the Bible can adequately explain why this is so.
  
  
  Critical thinkers who are looking for an intelligent response to evolution's
  overconfidence will welcome this bold statement, and it will have enormous
  appeal for Christians who want a scientific, philosophical, and theological
  response to the claims of evolution.
  
  
  AN EXCERPT:
  
  It is said that he who controls the definitions controls the debate. Nowhere
  is this more true than in the public debate over evolution. Practically since
  Charles Darwin first proposed the theory of evolution its adherents have
  insisted that the controversial idea is a fact. The details may not all be
  known, they allow, but the overarching idea is not in question. Obviously,
  defining evolution to be a fact makes Darwinists instant winners in any
  debate. And while skeptics do not accept this lofty designation, they
  nonetheless usually agree that evolution is science. In fact they often go
  out of their way to point out that evolution is a scientific theory. Their
  point is that evolution is not a fact, but merely a theory which could turn
  out to be wrong.
  
  
  BUT SHOULD THE EVOLUTION DEBATE BE SO NARROWLY FOCUSED? THE QUESTION OF WHETHER EVOLUTION IS SCIENTIFIC FACT OR THEORY MISSES THE BIGGER ISSUE
  REGARDING EVOLUTION'S NONSCIENTIFIC INFLUENCES. THE TENDENCY TO CATEGORIZE EVOLUTION AS SOMETHING SCIENTIFIC, WHETHER COMPELLING OR A MERE POSSIBILITY, RUNS THE RISK OF MISIDENTIFYING EVOLUTION ALTOGETHER. AND THERE IS REASON TO THINK THAT A NEW CATEGORY IS NEEDED, FORE THERE IS MUCH MORE IN DARWIN'S THEORY THAN JUST SCIENCE.
  
  Author info
  
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  --
  Cornelius G. Hunter, formerly senior vice president of Seagull Technology,
  Inc., in Silicon Valley, is engaged in molecular biophysics post-doctoral and
  engineering research in Cameron Park, California. He is the author of
  Darwin's God.
  
  Endorsements
  
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  --
  "The most perceptive analysis of the Darwinian controversy I have seen.
  Hunter teaches you a wealth of recent biological findings, and in a nuanced
  way looks at the conclusions that can be fairly drawn." - Lawrence Johnston,
  University of Idaho
  
  
  Table of Contents
  
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  --
  1. Darwin's Deceptive Idea
  2. Swallowing a Camel: The Fundamental Argument against Evolution
  3. Swallowing a Camel: The Fundamental Argument against Evolution, Part II
  4. Straining at the Gnat: The Scientific Argument against Evolution
  5. Straining at the Gnat: The Scientific Argument against Evolution, Part II
  6. Blind Guides: The Philosophical Argument against Evolution
  7. Another Gospel: The Theological Argument against Evolution
  8. A Reason for Hope: The Only Explanation for Life
  9. What Has Been Made: One Long Parable
  10. Come Let Us Reason: The Intelligent Design Theory
  Appendix: Faulty Arguments for and against Evolution
• 

  Jerry Bergman

  a) as we said already in anotherthread....the 95% are in regard to the entire genome....not just the coding sequences !

  So? The research shows we are finding uses for the entire genome and we will, I believe, find a function for the entire genome.

  b) also as stated already somewhere else...probability calculations are rediculous if one doesn'T know the underlying concepts.

  Good point!

  c) right away the first book in your list was refuteted already by experts in the field....if you are interested do a google search.

  I have read everything I can find and find and it is clear that the refutations are totally deficient, to say the least. When you get life, as per the standard biological definition of life, in the most reducible unit, the quark, then you will have disproved Behe.
• 

  Realist

  When you get life, as per the standard biological definition of life, in the most reducible unit, the quark, then you will have disproved Behe.

  what do you mean???

  So? The research shows we are finding uses for the entire genome and we will, I believe, find a function for the entire genome.

  on what do you base this believe?
• 

  Abaddon

  Jerry, do you get paid commision or something. Please, do me a favour, if you're going to post a bunch of book reviews from a commercial site, don't bother.

  If you can't even be bothered to answer questions yourself, and post dozens of books on the basis that if you overload people with references they'll never get round to making you address specific issues that have been raised on this or other threads, just don't bother. I have better things to do with my time.

  On the other hand, address some of the issues we have open.

  I must note here that either you misunderstood what I said or were careless. None of those books address the core problem of Intelligent Design. If complex things have to to be designed, who designed the designer, who is presumably far more complex than us? It's a lousy theory that falsifies itself.
• 

  Jerry Bergman

  None of those books address the core problem of Intelligent Design. If complex things have to to be designed, who designed the designer, who is presumably far more complex than us? It's a lousy theory that falsifies itself. Actually most of these books address this concern in detail. Also, as to "If complex things have to to be designed, who designed the designer, who is presumably far more complex than us?" this is one of the oldest arguments for atheism, and has been discussed by many in history, and some do a better job than others. We have the same problem with atheistic ideas though. This is expressed as "why is there something rather than nothing?"There are several ways of answering it, all which can be involved. Also, It would take a book to adequately deal with your concern and to do justice I need to write a book. Hopefully I will and than I will send it to you.
• 

  Jerry Bergman

  I finally completed my response to some of the issues raised above. My response is on line at: http://www.freeminds.org/psych/bergmancritique2.htm

  My responce to Lippard et al.

  http://www.rae.org/racistresponse.html.