Maybe I'm missing something about this particular Creationist's arguement..

by Abaddon 69 Replies latest jw friends

  • Jerry Bergman
    Jerry Bergman

    Some off the top of my head responses (I could not find the new site). DNA/RNA

    1. What is the estimated minimum nucleotide length of DNA or RNA needed for a self-reproducing organism? The lower limit for a non virus is usually considered about 4,000 genes or about 400,000 DNA base pairs. Others feel the number is lower. According to some scientists at UNC, "[t]he minimum number of protein-producing genes a single-celled organism needs to survive and reproduce in the laboratory is somewhere between 265 and 350." See http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/12/991213052506.htm
    Time will tell. For humans the DNA from an average person will stretch to the sun and back 600 times.

    2. How long of polymers (nucleotide length) of DNA or RNA have been formed in labs under realistic conditions? How close is this to the answer to question # 1. By "machine" I am not aware of any known limit, but this procedure is human designed so it is only of indirect interest.

    3. Will a forming polymer tend to lengthen or break apart under naturalistic conditions? It will break apart and this is why repair enzymes are critical. otherwise it would not last long even in the cell.

    4. Do all the sugars in DNA and RNA have to be either "right handed (D)" or "left handed (L)" or will a combination of both in the same molecule lead to functional nucleic acids? The sugars have to match the whole system, especially the enzyme system that makes them. As far as I know all of the sugar backbones of RNA and DNA are only D isomers. Optical activity purity is biologically necessary for proper coiling for both amino acids and also for the sugars.I understand that getting the right kinds of sugars is statistically vastly more difficult than optically pure amino acids.



    5. If only one type of sugar (D or L) will work, how could long polymers of DNA/RNA form from a 50/50 mixture? Has there been any naturalistic condition found which could separate the two out, leading to polymers of only 1 type being formed? Polymers could form but they would not be functional. I would think that they would be stickey like candy

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon
    I have published over 400 articles on this and related topics and many thousands of articles exist as well as thousands of books by many persons far more qualified than I. If you send me your address I will send you a set.

    If that's what you mean, my email is in my profile, send me your and I'll provde a mailing address.

    Under hooberus's rules of discussion I am not allowed to respond to a change of topic on a thread, so cannot respond to the questions asked.

    Jibes at an individual's avoidance when avoidance suits said individual aside, I do think it would be neater to start a new thread... provided the playing field is level.

    A presuppostional stance on the prexistence or perpetual existence of god with no proof being provided as to how god came into existence or was perpetually exisiting is just not worth arguing with. It's the old invisable pink unicorn arguement, and I have better things to do with my time.

    If I'm going to discuss abiogenesis, then people advancing the theory of god as an alternative have to provide theories of how god came into being, otherwise they are arguing in favour of invisable pink unicorns whilst expecting absolute definative scientific proof of theories till in development in return.

    The reason I say this is that I believe that at this moment initial origins ARE unprovable, and that any closure in the god/not god (god as in Christian Creator Bible God who did it like in Genesis) debate can only come about through time.

    I feel, given the evidence NOW, and the historical evidence we have, that the theory of god is far less credible than the theory of a naturalistic origin.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Thanks for the info Jerry, I might have a few questions late

    Abaddon said:

    A presuppostional stance on the prexistence or perpetual existence of god with no proof being provided as to how god came into existence or was perpetually exisiting is just not worth arguing with. It's the old invisable pink unicorn arguement, and I have better things to do with my time.

    If I'm going to discuss abiogenesis, then people advancing the theory of god as an alternative have to provide theories of how god came into being, otherwise they are arguing in favour of invisable pink unicorns whilst expecting absolute definative scientific proof of theories till in development in return.

    The reason I say this is that I believe that at this moment initial origins ARE unprovable, and that any closure in the god/not god (god as in Christian Creator Bible God who did it like in Genesis) debate can only come about through time.

    I feel, given the evidence NOW, and the historical evidence we have, that the theory of god is far less credible than the theory of a naturalistic origin.

    Abaddon: you always seem to being up the same dodge when someone tries to provide evidence against abiogenesis. You always swich the topic away from scientific evidence for or against abiogenesis to the subject of "the theory of god." The existence of God is generally admitted to be outside of the scientific theory, whereas abiogenesis is supposed to based upon chemistry and observable natural laws. Earlier I said the following when you tried the same tactic when on another thread starScream brought up abiogenesis, to which I replied:

    hooberus said: starScream, the conversation that you are having with Abaddon, seems similar to the one that I had with Abaddon on another post, in which Abaddon is requiring you to first prove the existance of an invisible God (something which is not observable), before you can critique an aspect of evolutionary theory or naturalistic abiogenesis.

    Requiring someone to prove something which everyone agrees is not technically falsifable (such as the existance of an unobservable God) before you are allowed to critique a supposedly falsifiable theory (such as evolution or naturalistic abiogenesis) automatically makes your task impossible. Hense you are now in a debate to where the outcome has already been decided in Abaddon's favor by his own rules.

    Its like trying to play chess with someone who put his pieces on the board, but won't allow you to put your pieces on the board until you prove that the invisible is visible.

    Abaddon said: I feel, given the evidence NOW, and the historical evidence we have, that the theory of god is far less credible than the theory of a naturalistic origin.

    Now I'll be a little dogmatic, like the evolutionists are here. Given the evidence NOW, and the historical evidence we have, the theory of god still stands as very possible, whereas aboigenesis is effectively impossible, due to the fact that natural selection cannot be invoked before reproduction, hense only chance and chemical properties are left which cannot explain self-reproduction. When you are down to two basic concepts of origins one supposedly falsifiable (naturalistic abiogeneis) and the other (creation) supposedly not falsifiable, if the falsilfiable one is falsified than the other by defalt must be true.

    EVIDENCE NOW = ABIOGENESIS FALSIFIED: MISSION IMPOSSIBLE

    EVIDENCE NOW = CREATION TRUE

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    hooberus, where is the difficulty in understanding my statement?

    "I believe that at this moment initial origins ARE unprovable"

    I think it is quite clear. Do you understand it?

    Now, let's try a second sentence;

    "I feel, given the evidence NOW, and the historical evidence we have, that the theory of god is far less credible than the theory of a naturalistic origin."

    Now, you claim that abiogenesis is falsifiable. I disagree, some theories of abiogenesis have been falsiified, others may be falisified, but your claim that the idea of abiogenesis being totally falsifiable NOW is itself, false.

    You are welcome to provide evidence showing that every theory of abiogenesis has been falsified, but as they haven't, you can't, and your assertion is either a lie or you demonstrating you don't know enough about what you are talking about to make reliable statements.

    You also in your reply make another incorrect statement, again, either a lie or ignorance;

    "hense only chance and chemical properties are left which cannot explain self-reproduction"

    I've been telling you to look at prions for ages now, you have no excuse. If you had, I doubt you'd of made that statement.

    I have a feeling you have restricted your study of the sciences to specific arenas and cases which lend themselves to defending your obsession with a literalistic biblical interpretation. Time and time again, you show you don't have a comprehensive knowledge of topics you debate in.

    When this is pointed out, you get so annoyed! It's a bit like an Englishman who likes Rugby considering himself an expert on NFL 'cause he read a few magazine articles, and then complaining bitterly and sulking, when people laugh at him when he asks then when they're going to have a scrum.

    You're free to make these comments, but I'm free to think what I like about your competence in the biological sciences based upon your comments. If I said Jesus was a kangaroo, you'd laugh at me, so please don't start singing ad hoberus...

    If I am wrong regarding your scientific comprehension, explain for me, in your own words, to a level of complexity one would expect from a College undergraduate, either photosynthesis, or the use of ATP, or spermatogenesis.

    Where does that leave us? You've made an assertion you cannot support... but let us humour you.

    Say that currently, all theories of abiogenesis and cosmology that make a godless Universe possible WERE falsifiable.

    How did we get here? You cannot prove that god exists. Based upon what it says in the Bible about god caring, it is illogical that god would have removed any possible evidence for its existence, as to do so would raise unanswerable questions, or at least raise questions with presuppositionalistic answers. Intelligent design is laughable, and I do hope you disagree with me on this as I have some crackers to prove it with.

    You cannot prove that the Bible is an inspired book. Some of the dictates in it are obviously tribal laws created with no conception of human biology. Either that or god has a funny sense of humour. Some of it portrays god acting in a way that would get him arrained in the Hauge as a War Criminal (unless he's an American citizen, as they've not signed the treaty). That's not consistant either.

    You cannot prove that there is an afterlife. No one has ever proved there is an afterlife.

    You cannot prove that Jesus existed. You even avoid answerig the questions that shoot holes in your carefully constructed tower of beliefs regarding the reality of Jesus.

    Now you want me to believe in what you believe when you can prove NOTHING?

    You are telling me that the world's entire scientific community and media are in a conspiracy to lie about fossils, dating methods, you name it, and that a few scientists here and there have a clear insight of the truth? Sounds a bit like people who say there is an Zionist conspiracy, or that there are Aliens here NOW, or that contrails are actually chemicals sprayed for the government's psycological control program.

    You expect me to find it logical that a god would expect people to believe in things which have the same amount of proof as fairy stories, or that somehow forcing people to exercise faith (blind acceptence of what people can't prove) is in any way consistant with the god of the Bible?

    No thanks. I find more fact and closure in science than in your theology.

    At the same time I'm not saying god doesn't exist. But if there is a god, it's nothing like what is says in the Bible. This I feel IS provable, from using the Bible.

    This is perhaps your greatest fault. You are such a Christian chauvanist that you cannot see that most major world religions have equal degrees of proof, yet are convinced that the one you happened to have been born into it the right one.

    If it makes you happy...

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Abaddon said: Now, you claim that abiogenesis is falsifiable. I disagree, some theories of abiogenesis have been falsiified, others may be falisified, but your claim that the idea of abiogenesis being totally falsifiable NOW is itself, false.

    My statements refering to abiogenesis were not meant to say that it has been "totally falsified", but that it has been for all practical purposes falsified. I discussed this on a previous thread in which I admitted that while it is difficult to absolutely falsify it, from what we know about the complexity of life, abiogenesis really should be considered for all practical purposes falsified. I should have used my earlier terminology.

    Also on a previous thread your fellow evolutionists made and defended the statement that all unfalsifiable theories had an equal chance of being true. Therfore according to this logic the theory of abiogenesis has an equal chance of being true as creation by mutant french toast eating pink unicorns !

    I've been telling you to look at prions for ages now, you have no excuse. If you had, I doubt you'd of made that statement.

    Yeah, Prions - a great source for how DNA and RNA came into being . . . . ????????

    Intelligent design is laughable, and I do hope you disagree with me on this as I have some crackers to prove it with.

    Speakind of crackers, the crackers that you eat probably have a pattern that even you would attribute to intelligent design, yet you deny design for much more complex biological structures.

    .

    You cannot prove that Jesus existed. You even avoid answerig the questions that shoot holes in your carefully constructed tower of beliefs regarding the reality of Jesus.

    On the other thread I have shown multiple independant sources for the historicity of Jesus, evidence which "proves" that Jesus existed just as much, if not more so than many historical persons whom even you would acknowledge as having lived.

    You are telling me that the world's entire scientific community and media are in a conspiracy to lie about fossils, dating methods, you name it, and that a few scientists here and there have a clear insight of the truth? Sounds a bit like people who say there is an Zionist conspiracy, or that there are Aliens here NOW, or that contrails are actually chemicals sprayed for the government's psycological control program.

    Much of the world's scientific community is locked into an interpreataive framework where only naturalistic theories are allowed as well as an educational system that only teaches one interpretation (evolutionary) of the data. A framework that leads to excluding creation a priori. Also its more than a "few scientists here and there" who believe that the evidence supports creation.

    This is perhaps your greatest fault. You are such a Christian chauvanist that you cannot see that most major world religions have equal degrees of proof, yet are convinced that the one you happened to have been born into it the right one.

    I've studied most major religions of the world and they do not have equal degrees of proof !

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Abaddon said: I have a feeling you have restricted your study of the sciences to specific arenas and cases which lend themselves to defending your obsession with a literalistic biblical interpretation. Time and time again, you show you don't have a comprehensive knowledge of topics you debate in.

    While I may not have a "comprehensive" knowlege of every subject that I debate in on these threads, I think that I do have a basic grasp of some of the issues. If you disagree please provide examples.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Hey hoob, have a good weekend...this is in haste as I'm goin' home... I had a busy day at work and spent my surf time replying to Jerry as I saw his post first, thus short reply to you;

    While I may not have a "comprehensive" knowlege of every subject that I debate in on these threads, I think that I do have a basic grasp of some of the issues. If you disagree please provide examples.

    Okay;

    My statements refering to abiogenesis were not meant to say that it has been "totally falsified", but that it has been for all practical purposes falsified. I discussed this on a previous thread in which I admitted that while it is difficult to absolutely falsify it, from what we know about the complexity of life, abiogenesis really should be considered for all practical purposes falsified.

    You are treating opinion as fact. Fine, you're entitled to your opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts though, and that claim is falsifiable.

    Another example is how you try to divert my mention of prions (which are a good example of 'life', but not as we know it) into talking about RNA/DNA, which prions have NOTHING to do with. I was just showing replication is not restricted to RNA/DNA.

    Talk to other people about their arguements, unless you want me to discuss female circumsicion with you just because you happen to believe in a god! You won;t defend that, I won't defend statements I haven;t made.

    And you still haven't answered how you can explain the absence of mention of the dead coming alive and preaching (after Jesus death) in any contemporary account.

    I have a train to catch...

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Another example is how you try to divert my mention of prions (which are a good example of 'life', but not as we know it) into talking about RNA/DNA, which prions have NOTHING to do with. I was just showing replication is not restricted to RNA/DNA.

    Since all biological cells today reproduce by DNA, then as you say prions have "NOTHING to do with" explaining the origin of self reproduction done by all creatures today. They may be a form of self-replication not restricted to DNA, but so is the computer viris, both of which do not offer solutions to the origin of life as seen in all creatures today.

    And you still haven't answered how you can explain the absence of mention of the dead coming alive and preaching (after Jesus death) in any contemporary account.

    I am going to give my answer to this one on the other thread.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    No need to shout!

    When you do, if I don't respond, it's cause I missed it in the shuffle, so let me know, I'm interested to see what you come up with.

  • Jerry Bergman
    Jerry Bergman

    Now we are down from 99.8% all the way to 94-95%. A lot of Darwinists now look very foolish.

    Article from Nature
    Full text here:
    http://www.nature.com/nsu/030428/030428-3.html

    Donald M

    Chimps expose humanness

    Preliminary genome comparison points to primate individuality.
    29 April 2003

    HELEN PEARSON

    By studying chimpanzees, scientists are honing their genetic view of
    humanity, researchers told this week's meeting of the Human Genome
    Organisation in Cancun, Mexico.

    A group presented the first detailed comparison between a large chunk of
    human DNA and the equivalent from our closest relative. The genetic make-up
    of chimpanzee chromosome 22 is hot off the press, having just been
    sequenced, and matches human chromosome 21.

    The data call for some revision of the estimated genetic similarity between
    us and our closest relatives. Previously, human and chimp genetic sequences
    were quoted as being nearly 99% identical, with a difference of only a few
    DNA's letters. In fact, the similarity may be as low as 94-95%, says Todd
    Taylor of the RIKEN Genomic Sciences Center in Yokohama, Japan.

    Taylor's team factors in whole segments that they found to have been added
    to or subtracted from one of the genomes; previous estimates were often
    produced by comparing smaller areas. "There's still not a good way to say
    how much we're similar," admits Taylor.

    It is not yet clear how these rearrangements and single-letter changes
    underlie 'human' characteristics such as talking, abstract thinking and
    certain diseases. But, "if we want to find the very fine differences that
    make us human we have to look at our closest relative", Taylor says.

    The team found that one gene that is linked to Alzheimer's disease - a brain
    disorder that does not seem to afflict chimps - produces a slightly
    different protein in chimps from the corresponding human version. In all,
    around 16% of genes in the compared sequences have such variations. Another
    good example, says geneticist Stephen Scherer of the Hospital for Sick
    Children in Toronto, was found last year in a gene called FOXP2, which seems
    to control human language. Chimpanzees have two key changes in the gene,
    which may prevent them from articulating speech.

    Taylor's is one of two international groups that are now working their way
    through the chimpanzee's genome. They also hope to pinpoint cases in which,
    although chimp and human genes are very similar, they are active at
    different times or places in the body.

    Researchers announced only last week that they have largely completed the
    human genetic sequence. But "it's not enough to tell us everything about
    ourselves", says Human Genome Organisation president Yoshiyuki Sakaki, also
    at the RIKEN genome centre.

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