by Doug Mason 27 Replies latest watchtower bible
Sylvia: It's amazing how Bible texts come alive w/o WT filters.
They (WTS) WERE are a necessary BOOT CAMP for me, cant deny that (as a former RCC) ! but we grow up ...spiritually ..and still a work in progress..no regrets !
keep me in your prayers ...im a sinner saved by/in grace romans 5...I cant forget that !
A work in progress ..not once saved always saved, sort of sentimentality
there are more *honest people* at an AA or alanon meeting than in churches !
Irish
thewonderofyou,
Are you prepared to keep in touch with me by email? If so, my address is in my Study. I guarantee that I never disclose communications or any personal details.
I am about to embark on a Chapter dealing with the soteriology of the Church's first few centuries. When you look at my overall Draft Study, you will see that I have drafted a Chapter on Anselm, who dreamt up the idea (based on his medieval culture) that Jesus' death compensated for the death that a believer should have experienced because of their sin.
Prior to Anselm, the Church followed Origen, who said that the death of Jesus was a ransom payment to Satan. With the Watchtower's "ransom" theory, I do not know who they believe the "ransom" was paid to.
Regarding the idea of the worth of Jesus' "blood" that you raise, again it is a matter of understanding idiomatic usage, as you point out. In this case, the term "blood" simply means his "death". With Jewish writings, poetry consists of paralleling ideas, whether as agreements or as contrasts. Off-hand, I cannot recall the precise reference, although I think it is in Romans, where the term "blood" is paralleled with "death".
Note, however, that this is Paul's take on salvation. His focus is totally on Jesus' death and resurrection. His need to emphasise this shows there were others who had a different focus. I think here of the Johannine community, which wrote that God gave his son (speaking of the birth, not the death) so that any who believes will be saved. John focuses on the life of Jesus ("I am the way", etc., which Jesus probably did not say) not on his death. John does not places the "this is my blood/body" within the context of the Passover.
You will see my understanding of the Johannine community at my Draft Study.
Doug
snowbird,
It IS my intention to make people think, and to think for themselves, away from ideas imposed on them by others.
I am not concerned whether a person agrees with me or not. What matters is that each person is honest to themself and that they resopect the rights of anyone else to their views. Otherwise the mental consequences can be too much to bear. I want the right to have my views; hence I must extend that right to others.
Throughout history up to today we see what happens when people do not respect the rights of others to have a different religious outlook. Christianity was torn apart by its internal wars of the 4th and 5th centuries, and when tens of thousands were killed during the Reformation period, and today such as with Ireland and with fundamentalist Islamists. When has religion brought peace? Secular society is bringing the churches (and the Watchtower) to account over the sexual abuses they tolerated in order to protect their organisations.
Doug
Doug ..
Has anyone (in church history) ever stressed that YHWH was reconciling *ALL things* both in heaven and earth onto HIS OWN NATURE...any New Life is just a consequence of YHWH's divine nature NOT being compromised...LOVE MERCY JUSTICE etc
It takes a Divine Nature to reconcile for *ALL* creation (BOTH heaven and earth) NOT ONE perfect man... where is the justice in that !
cheers
2 COR 5:17-21, colossians 1:20
irishdub,
The first person that comes to mind is Origen, who spoke about universal salvation, even for the Devil. If you want to explore his ideas further, try Googling with:
Exclusivist or universalist? Origen the 'wise steward of the word'
While I was out walking, I was thinking of you and your "keep me in your prayers, I'm a sinner".
I wonder if religion is providing you with inner peace or whether it is the cause of torment. The idea of "you are a sinner" is one element of a powerful model employed by the few to control the masses. They play on two fears --(1) a person's recognition of their inadequacies (join the clan!) and (2) the fear of the consequences when God either intervenes or one dies.
Their model then says: (1) you are lost to God and in danger of eternal damnation (2) We are the only people who can show you the way to solve this problem, so come and join in with us (3) You are continually reminded to go back to step #1 ("you are lost ... etc.").
I suggest to you that every morning, before you hop out of bed, you tell yourself - aloud, if possible: "I am not a sinner. I do not fear death. I will enjoy today and make every effort to make the world a better place".
Doug
Hi Doug
Thanks for information, I will check out Origen as suggested.
as regards *fear of death* and *religious affiliation*, I have neither, since I'm a committed Christian Annihilationist, and feel free in Christ to fellowship with any christian denomination. But I do fear the *process* of dying ;)
*a SINNER* ..The fear/respect of God is the beginning of wisdom, So like gravity is a law, I believe a genuine soul searching humble attitude towards God ps. 51:10 (every morning with lots of coffee lol) is like a law that reaps dependency on his power for living with myself and others with a peaceful mindset. (not fear) my wife avoids me first thing in the early mornings, until I have my *coffee with jesus* (thats what I call my daily bible study) otherwise im a grumpy old man/fart ephesians 4:23.
I have always been impressed with support groups for addictions, so *im a sinner saved by / in grace*, sets the right attitude for receiving spiritual blessings and a renewed mind daily. , ephesians 4:23, romans chapter 5. I believe the apostle Paul showed the same example, dependency and attitude galatians 2:20, Romans 7:24
thanks for taking an interest and advise.
sincerely
Irish
Sylvia
John 12 in New World Translation:
Although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, ... The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: “He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.”Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him.
All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but they would not acknowledge him because of the Pharisees, so that they would not be expelled from the synagogue;for they loved the glory of men even more than the glory of God. - NWT
Isaiah saw God in heaven in Isaiah Ch. 6. The Apostle John says Isaiah saw Jesus. He equates the disbelieving of God in Isaiah, to the unbelieving Jews in John 12.
Also:
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts: 20: 28 (KJV)
The NWT was forced to add "Son" to change the meaning of this scripture:
"Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd to congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]." Acts 20;24 (NWT 1984 edition)
The brackets in the NWT indicate words that are not in the original text.The 2013 NWT edition eliminates the parenthesis, but leaves "Son" anyway.
Conclusion: The earliest Christians understood that Jehovah (God) took on human flesh in Jesus, the son of Mary, because they plainly wrote about it.
Reading Hebrews 1 & Revelation 1 in most anything but a NWT, also makes this crystal clear.
