I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • deegee


    About séances, trances & altered state of consciousness cont'd:

    The research indicates that information enters our brains minutely, hourly, daily at the conscious and unconscious level. Some of the unconscious information never makes its way to the conscious mind for active processing but remains in our subconscious - hypnosis has proven to be an effective method in accessing/uncovering information buried in a person's subconscious.

    There is always background activity taking place in our brains when we are awake and asleep and there is also a constant interplay between the conscious and subconscious mind - some information from the unconscious mind makes its way to the conscious mind for active processing and vice versa - issues from the conscious mind can get pushed out of consciousness into the unconscious mind.

    Our minds are never perfectly still. There is always subtle processing going on in which we can't consciously identify the thoughts in terms of clear words or clear images. There are rapid and fleeting associations taking place in the subconscious mind. Subtle processing or preconscious or subconscious processing gives rise to conscious self-talking and imaging, but as I have already stated, not all unconscious information makes its way to the conscious mind for active processing some remains in our subconscious and can be accessed/uncovered by methods like hypnosis.

    Psychologists, neuroscientists etc. have observed that there are certain intense practices which can alter a person's mind or state of consciousness to the point where, the person descends to deeper levels of his/her consciousness and releases from the deep mind, thoughts, impressions, visions, images, voices, words, etc.

    This altered state of consciousness involves a transition from the left brain to the right brain wherein the rational left brain is suppressed and quieted and the perceptive faculties of the intuitive right brain are awakened and the person transcends to the unknown, inner world of their subconscious mind.

    This opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done and so some persons may become psychic or clairvoyant being able to forsee the future when in fact it is thoughts, impressions, images, visions, voices, words etc emerging from the deep, intuitive levels of the right brain as their own subconscious mind begins to "speak" to them. New insights well up directly from the fluid matrix of the subconscious and the subtle processing taking place there, without having to be first processed at the conscious level. Some persons become psychotic or hallucinatory or some persons become both psychic/clairvoyant and psychotic/hallucinatory.

    Psychologists, neuroscientists etc. have observed that in some persons, intense spiritual practices like intense/strong/deep praying, meditation, fasting etc. result in a self-induced altered state of consciousness and attendant suppression of the rational left brain with the unleashing of the subconscious as I have described.

  • David_Jay


    While there are Jews who have a concept of demons similar to Christianity, like everything else in our crazy Jewish world, there is no definitive theology or dogma regarding them. Still you will find a ritual about exorcism in the Midrash. Among the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered a collection of “four songs for the charming of demons with music.” (11Q5) There is some further information about the practice in rabbinical literature, and even Josephus mentioned a Jewish exorcism in his writings. (Antiquities of the Jews, viii. 2, § 5) Also The Book of Tobit (found in the Catholic deuterocanonicals) is a Jewish tale centered on an exorcism.

    So you are correct in that the definition of what a demon is in Judaism can be quite different than in Christianity, and this may account for the varied approaches (and lack thereof in some instances) among Jews throughout history. It should be of interest too that both Judaism and Catholicism perform exorcisms according to a liturgical formula.


    Thank you for that information, but I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was unaware of what a seance is. What I meant is I had no information on exactly what happened in the case I was referring to regarding the aunt's seance practices.

    But I did some re-checking and discovered that the "seance" activity may have been limited only to the use of a talking board as a parlor game between the woman and her nephew. Roland was an only child, and the adults in his family were his primary friends according to reports. He was notably close to his aunt, a spiritualist. A news article in the Daily Mail states that Roland was given a talking board by his aunt as a gift and then died after the boy's 13th birthday. That account adds that it was after this loss that the alleged events took place.

    I cannot offer much more information on the case, however.

  • deegee


    I just thought that I would include the info regarding the neurological and psychological processes involved in a séance given that although your comment acknowledged these non-supernatural explanations, you also hinted that it could be otherwise:

    Again this may not have been the cause of the alleged possession, but the family was not religious at the time of the so-called events........
  • David_Jay

    That statement was in reply to the comment that atheists don't get possessed.

    I replied as I did to demonstrate that the family was not actually religious. From discussions with the Catholic exorcist, his implication was that religious people are generally not subjects for possession either. The cases tend to involve people in between both worlds, not necessarily religious but also not secular enough to avoid an interest in spiritualism or the occult. I was not, however, indicating that I think this case is a valid example of anything in particular. My apologies for the lack of clarity.

  • tepidpoultry

    Scientific experiments take place in a

    controlled environment

    for a reason

    For results to be considered valid they have to be repeated

    Once you have some material evidence (convenient that nobody does)

    Such as droppings that can be analyzed by reputable people

    Take them to James Randi (a former magician) and he will give you


    In the meantime, just keep up the Biblical practice of curing Epilepsy

    by Exorcism


  • David_Jay

    And that comment of Tepidpoultry is the basic issue I was getting at by my offering information on that case.

    There has not been critical research done to the extent of proving that possession is real, to prove that all cases have a particular common source or explanation, or to prove that only religious people get "possessed."

    Without a definitive study people are just shouting rhetoric here, be it to promote their opinion on religion that religion is a good or bad thing or something else.

  • deegee

    Fair enough, point taken.

  • deegee

    So Jesus warned:

    Matthew 12:43 - 45:

    " “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.” "

    But then God subsequently cleansed the heavens to protect his spiritual family by sending the demons down to the earth (Revelation 12:7-12). Now his physical family has to fight them.

    It was important for God to get rid of these pesky demons from heaven but then he gave them to mankind to deal with and we now have to fight them. WT#!

    Maybe Jesus needs to have a word with God about this............didn't God know that the demons will infiltrate our minds when they are blank, before he did this?

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