Here's a belief.........and a question
OK......lately at the baptismal talks there is mention of those getting baptized, that from that day on, they have become ordained ministers. Jehovah gives them that ordination. So, in order for us to be ordained ministers from God, aren't we supposed to receive the holy spirit so that when we go out preaching and teaching to others, the spirit will help us and guide us to those interested individuals?
If the answer is yes, why are we not born-again in the way that Jesus explained to Nicodemus? How could we not have the spirit or have God give it to us and still be baptized to be ordained ministers and not be born-again. Jesus said one must be born of water and spirit. So we get baptized (water). What follows is the reception of holy spirit. Right?
As I read this I find myself wondering if we really "receive" holy spirit in the same sense that we would "give" and "receive" love.. But as far as being born-again, I think just considering what those two words might mean should give us some clue. As we know, there are many who claim to be born-again, their basis appears to be emotional ecstasy alone. I've met people who eventually burn out, have a nervous breakdown etc. Being born-again seems to me means a profound change of the whole person, yet at the same time there is a sense of returning to an original, natural state of being. I think this is no doubt related to the idea that we're supposed to be like young children in order to enter the kingdom of God. If it is just emotional or intellectual, (and I am not saying the two together is all there is either) I doubt that's the real deal. It would be like those who partakes at the memorial and then later decide they're really not part of the remnant.
Intro-great sentence-it seems to be very true.
"Being born again seems to me means a profound
change of the whole person,yet at the same time
there is a sense of returning to an original,natural
state of being" It sure has for me. JW's for the most
part don't put on a new personality. They stop doing
"Evil" things like-christmas-wearing of the cross-
saluting the flag-smoking- and so on. Of course
they "need works"-not the works James wrote of.
No works equal 5 meetings a week-10hours out
annoying people-and if a parent ,being sure you
make your kids life a living hell.
As for H.S and baptism I believe they are separate
happenings. Only Jesus's happened together.
The very early followers were baptized first and after
ascending HE gave H.S to them. Seems after that
it was always the other way. You accepted Jesus as
Lord and Savior recieved H.S. Then got baptized in
symbol of acceptance. Today JW's don't get baptized
for this reason: to them it's a symbol of finding the
"DARKNESS"-thus the new improved vows.
Peace and Love
So baptism is a very serious thing. If a person understands what it means, then it would probably be somewhat emotional and intellectual...but not overboard.
Does being born-again always mean one has been begotten to be one of God's sons who will rule over the earth?
And crossroads, I believe a true witness, if he/she is claiming to be Christian, must first cultivate the fruits of the spirit, or else anything else they do or don't do is for nothing.
I think the scriptures are clear, that the holy spirt is given as a means of adoption as Sons [daughters] of God, and that pertains to heavenly life. There is nothing in scripture that states that Christians are to live on earth, on the contrary, their place is in heaven, and for a purpose! So being born again is not onlt accepting the ransom sacrifice, but layting down our lives as well in following in the footsteps of Christ, this entails self-sacrifice, it entails living for Jesus in everything we do, no longer living for self, but having him live in us as our head.
Religion is man's attempt to reach God, Jesus is God's attempt to reach man.
Thanks RR. But here is my problem. One can take what Jesus said very broadly. One can see the Kingdom of God without ruling in it because that person can be a subject of that kingdom. That is seeing the kingdom of God.
If you leave the apostle Paul out of this for a while, you will see Jesus' teachings are most complete and didn't have to be added to.
That is why I believe the apostle Paul was commenting on specific aspects of being born-again as far as being an adopted son of God and ruling in the kingdom. He was the one who talked about adoption. All Jesus said was that one must be born of water and spirit. He never expounded on that.
Do you agree that the Bible is for all mankind? If yes, then if someone reads the Bible, especially the Greek Scriptures (the NT) and you come across the scripture at 1 John 5:1 which I am paraphrasing:
"Everyone that believes Jesus is the Christ has been born from God." What are they supposed to think?
I believe Jesus is the Christ but I haven't received the spirit of adoption as a son to rule in heaven. Couldn't I just be born as a child of God to live on earth? Or should I stop believing Jesus is the Christ because I haven't received that adoption?
See the dilemma? As an ordinary person reading the Bible, say on my own, I would take it to mean I have been born from God because I believe Jesus is the Christ.
This is something I have been pondering for a long time.
Okay 'FP', take a lesson from the Tabernacle and learn where you are in the plan of God.
The Tabernacle is pictured in three parts or conditions. These are the Camp, the Court and the Holies [Holy and Most Holy]
The "Camp" represented the condition of the world of mankind in sin, needing atonement and desiring it and its blessings. In the type the "Camp" was the nation of Israel at large, which was separated from all holy things by the curtain of white linen, representing to those within a wall of faith, but to those without a wall of unbelief which hindered their view of and access to the holy things within. There was only one gateway to enter the "Holy Place" or "Court"; the type thus testifying that there is but one way of access to God--one "gate"--Jesus. "I am the way,...no man cometh unto the Father but by me." "I am the door." John 14:6; 10:9
"The Court," represented the condition of Justification, entered through faith in Christ, the "gate." Into this "Court" only Levites (typical of justified believers) were allowed to come, during the Atonement Day. These had access to the "Brazen Altar" and to the "Laver," and did service in the "Court," but had no right as merely Levites (believers) to go into the Tabernacle; no, nor even to look into it. (Num. 4:19,20) In the "Court" all things were of copper, to indicate that the class admitted there were justified men. The "Court" did not represent the condition of the spiritual class during the Gospel age, though the priests, in sacrificing and washing, used it also.
"The Tabernacle" building, with its two parts, represented the two conditions of all who undergo a change of nature from human to spiritual. The first apartment, the "Holy," represented the condition of all those who (as Levites--justified believers) have consecrated their human nature to death, that they might become partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4), having been begotten of the Spirit. Its second apartment, the "Holy of Holies," beyond the "Veil"-- death--represented the condition of the faithful "overcomers" who will attain to the divine nature. These, after having completed their consecration in death, will be fully changed, born from the dead in the First Resurrection, to the divine nature. No human being, be he ever so full of faith, be he washed from every sin, and in God's sight justified freely from all things and reckoned perfect, can have any place or privilege in the spiritual things represented in the interiors of the Tabernacle and Temple. He cannot even look into spiritual things, in the sense of appreciating them. But, during the Gospel age, such are "called" to consecrate and sacrifice their human nature in God's service, and to inherit instead the spiritual nature as members of the Body of Christ. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit...neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor. 2:14
The fact that all things in the Tabernacle were made of gold, representative of the divine nature, implies that it represented the condition of such only as are called to the divine nature. Only those of the Levites who were consecrated to the work of sacrificing (the Priests) had access to the Tabernacle; so only those of the household of faith who are consecrated to sacrifice, even unto death, enter the divine conditions represented in the Tabernacle.
The "Court," the justified human condition, is entered by faith only; but while we must retain the faith that justifies, we must do more, if we would experience a change of nature and become "new creatures," "partakers of the heavenly calling," to be "partakers of the divine nature." Entering the "Holy," therefore, implies our full consecration to the Lord's service, our begetting of the spirit and our start in the race for the prize of the divine nature-- the terms of which are, faithfulness to our vow, crucifying the justified flesh, presenting our human wills and bodies living sacrifices to God; no longer to seek human pleasure, honor, praise, etc., but to be dead to these and alive to the heavenly impulses. Yet, into this condition, also, we still come through Christ Jesus our Lord, who not only opened for us the "Gate" of justification through faith in his blood, but who also opened the "Door" (the first veil) into the Tabernacle, "a new way of life," as spirit beings, through and beyond the second veil, by the sacrifice of our justified flesh.
Hence the two apartments of the Tabernacle, the "Holy" and the "Most Holy," represented two phases or stages of the new life to which we are begotten by the holy Spirit.
The "Holy" represented the present condition of those begotten of God through the Word of Truth. (Jas. 1:18) These, as heavenly minded "new creatures," though still "in the flesh," have their real (inner) life and walk with God within the first veil of consecration, and beyond the intellectual sight of the world and the unconsecrated believers. These enjoy the inner light of the "golden candlestick," while others are in "outer darkness"; these eat of special spiritual food, represented in the unleavened "bread of presence," and offer incense at the golden altar, acceptable through Christ Jesus.
The "Most Holy" represented the perfected condition of those new creatures who, faithful unto death, gain the great prize of our high calling through a share in the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:6) Then, beyond both veils,the fleshly mind and the fleshly body,they will possess glorious spiritual bodies as well as spiritual minds. They will be like their Leader and Forerunner beyond the veil, who, having entered as our Redeemer, hath consecrated for us this new and living way--or new way of life. Heb. 10:20; 1 John 3:2
The spiritual-minded creature in the "Holy" by faith looks forward through the rent "Veil" into the "Most Holy," catching glimpses of the glory, honor and immortality beyond the flesh; which hope is as an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast, entering into that which is beyond the veil. Heb. 6:19; 10:20
We see, then, that justification by faith, our first step toward holiness, brings us into a condition of "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:1) When our sins are forgiven, or reckonedly covered with Christ's righteousness, we are a step nearer to God, but still human--in the "Court." If we would attain the prize of the high calling which is of God in Christ Jesus, and enter through the "Holy" into the "Most Holy," we must follow in the Footsteps of Jesus, our Leader and Head--"the High Priest of our profession" [i.e., the High Priest of our order of priesthood] the "royal priesthood." Heb. 3:1; 1 Peter 2:9.
In plain English? You are a justified believer, having put faith in the Christ Jesus, but your stuck in the "Court".
Religion is man's attempt to reach God,
Jesus is God's attempt to reach man.
I personally feel all the convoluted reasoning regarding the holy spirit and when you get it and what it means, etc. is just a perpetuation and extension of JW sophistry.
My opinion is that the holy spirit was poured out upon "all flesh" at Pentecost. "All flesh." Not just those in some room somewhere as the JWs would have it. This spirit of truth has since that time been available to each and every human being - each son and daughter of God the father, hereafter called sons.
We are not "adopted" by God as would be a child not of origin in a particular family, we are directly and unequivocally the children of God by direct spiritual relationship. As stated so beautifully in Romans: All who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
As such, God is my father, Jesus is my brother...as are all the angels in the cosmos. And as are all other living, sentient, creatures of freewill dignity where ever in the mighty cosmos they may chance to be.
We are all the children of God. Every son of God shares the fatherhood of God, and God loves each of his creature sons alike. The Father loves each one of us his sons, his children, and that affection is not less than true, holy, divine, unlimited, eternal, and unique--a love bestowed upon this son and upon that son, individually, personally, and exclusively. And such a love utterly eclipses all other facts. Sonship is the supreme relationship of the creature to the Creator.
And that relationship is unimpinged and unlimited by a microminority religious cult led by a dozen or so puny, senile octogenerian false prophets headquarted in the city of Brooklyn, on this speck of dirt called earth. What utter arrogance.
And that's my $0.02.
Ah, so, some pagan, worshipping a rock because of his being included in "all flesh" would have received this holy spirit? I don't think so!
Religion is man's attempt to reach God,
Jesus is God's attempt to reach man.
YOU don't think so? Luckily for the rest of the human race, RR, God is not limited by that same stunted viewpoint and outlook that has your foot impaled to the ground.