Shepherding Visit this Weekend

by Jourles 29 Replies latest jw friends

  • xjw_b12

    Jourles. Yes Haven't seen you here for a while. Missed your input, especially the tech stuff.

    Oh Yeah, Record everything you can, audio, video, hey even plant a bug out at the front door, and one in their vehicle, if you can excuse yourself for a minute or two to do that.

    Hey, it may not be of any use to you afterwords, but I would pay to hear one of those shepherding visits, or JC meetings after the fact. I know I've heard a few of them over the years, and it's like a replay of my favorite comedy tape. It is truly amazing, no matter what part of the world it comes from, they all speel out the same shit.

    Good Luck !

    HEY Ikhandi

    I mean since when are the elders the wt police?

    What Precinct are you from ?

  • JT
    JT - you are right on the money as usual.


    a former cheese and cracker man

    from one C&CM to another, just keeping it real and trying to save my man alot of unnecessary wasted energy on men who are qualified to tie his shoes

    from my persepective as a former elder it is like cussing out the guy in the mailroom for delievering you a letter at work from the CEO who dogged you -

    directing all that energy to the lowest man on the totem pole of wt power- once again the GB and their right hand men win-

  • Jourles

    Thanks everyone. JT - I realize that most elders out there will merely kill the conversation when they feel a debate warming up. My purpose of preparing though is to confront them with enough information that will make my advances seem legitimate and sincere - information that comes from memory and the heart, not xerox'd copies of old WT's and books. Hence the need of also refraining from using the internet as a tool of reference. If they ask me if I have a problem with any of the doctrines, then by all means, I will open up the floodgates. If they decide to retract their question and move on, I will politely remind them that they were the ones who asked me, not the other way around.

    Regarding the blood doctrine, my wife knows my position. She cannot discuss it without walking away almost in tears. If it tells you anything, she has yet to fill out her DPA form AND also her Medical Directive card. Curious... About three weeks ago, I spoke with my mother for about two hours about blood. We had a nice pleasant conversation that had an underlying debate tone to it. We both volleyed questions back and forth to each other. I have to admit, she put up a very good jw defense. It took some mental gymnastics to see where she was coming from on some points, but she managed to make them fit her ideals as a true blue jw. In the end, she was not able to explain a few points such as the donating of blood and how jw's will accept blood products, the acceptance of fractions derived from red and white blood cells and platelets, even though the current WT position is that witnesses are allowed to accept any fraction derived from ALL major components rather than just plasma proteins. Her bottom line answer was for me to write the Society for the answers. When a witness says that, that is the signal of defeat.

    If something were to happen due to this visit coming up and I was to be df'd or automatically da'd, I wanted to lay the groundwork with my relatives and let them know or have an idea of what it was that caused me to become df'd. If they see me become df'd for something they themselves cannot explain, to me, that is quite alright. I can live with that. AS LONG AS THEY KNOW I STOOD UP FOR MY BELIEFS ABOUT A DOCTRINE THAT CAN KILL PEOPLE, I feel that my family will not disown and shun me. They may feel extreme sorrow at first, but that is the typical jw mind control kicking in. It also works very well for going out in service. If the elders ask for me to go out, I will ask them if they would find it appropriate if the householder was to question me about why jw's do not accept blood and if I agreed with the householder that it was not a very sound doctrine and that it had several flaws in it, would they want me going out and speaking that way? I imagine not. God forbid, assigning me a talk that made any reference to blood in it.

    Regarding the digital recorder and camcorder - I have never seen or heard a shepherding call on tape, only a judicial meeting. I would like to have it for safe keeping, just in case. Who knows, this may be the beginning installment of my exit from the org. I would like to have it thoroughly documented for future reference. And as I said earlier, I do not want anything said by myself or them taken out of context later and used against me in the wrong way. If it's one thing the Society HATES, it is when their "cheese cracker" men say the wrong thing and it gets recorded.

  • joannadandy

    Poor stomach goes into knots just thinking about a shepherding call...I know my parents had one a couple of weeks ago...I was exempted from going, and as far as I know I was not the issue.

    Glad to see you back tho, sorry to hear you have to deal with this. But if anyone can do it I am sure you can!

    Would you like me to sit on your lap in a cheerleader outfit to cheer you on and provide moral support? I think it would be a nice touch myself.

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    I thought I would post some Quotes which show the "OLD LIGHT" / "NEW LIGHT" of the "Generation of 1914":


    Awake!, April 8th 1974 Issue, Page 18:

    The fact that those foretold events have taken place, right on schedule, all within one generation, gives us confidence that the fulfillment of God’s promise of genuinely better times will also take place. When will it come? Before the lifetime of the '1914 generation' runs out.

    How do we know that? Because this point was specifically mentioned by Jesus Christ as part of his prophecy for our times. He pointedly said: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."--Matt. 24:34.

    The '1914 generation' has nearly run out, with most of the people who were alive then having already died. The remainder are of advanced age. Thus there is full reason for confidence that God’s time is indeed at hand to bring true relief from earth’s present pressures and afflictions.

    The Watchtower, December 15th 1976 Issue, Page 750:

    This generation among which all such unrighteous persecution of God's ambassadors and emissaries has been committed since World War I of 1914-1918 C.E. is a marked generation. How so? In that it will experience God’s fulfilling of his promise to bring in the righteous new system of things.

    The Watchtower, May 1st 1985 Issue, Page 7:

    We also know that the 1914 generation is well into the evening of its existence, thus allowing only little time for this prophecy yet to be fulfilled. But we also know--for this we have Jesus' own promise--that "this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen."--Revelation 17:11; Mark 13:30.

    Worldwide Security Book (1986), Page 16:

    The generation of 1914 saw the start of the meaningful world events foretold by Jesus. (Matthew 24:3-14) That generation, Jesus said, would not pass away until all these things would be fulfilled. It is now very close to finishing its course.--Matthew 24:34.

    True Peace Book (1986), Pages 83-84:

    As to "that day and hour," Jesus said, “nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” But Jesus did give a helpful time indicator when he said: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matthew 24:34, 36) Thus all the various features of “the sign,” as well as the “great tribulation,” must take place within the lifetime of one generation--the generation of 1914. This means that some persons who observed the events of 1914, when "the conclusion of the system of things" began, would still be alive to see its end when the "great tribulation" strikes. Those who remember the events of 1914 are getting up in years now. Most of their number have already died. But Jesus assured us that "this generation will by no means pass away" before destruction of this wicked system of things comes.--Matthew 24:21.

    Awake!, November 8th 1986 Issue, Page 8:

    The Scriptures call this short period preceding God’s intervention “the time of the end” and specify that it will not last longer than a “generation.”

    Since the “generation” of 1914 is now well advanced in years, God’s promise is really up-to-date news for young people today.

    Reasoning Book (1989)

    Page 97:

    Before the last members of the generation that was alive in 1914 will have passed off the scene, all the things foretold will occur, including the “great tribulation” in which the present wicked world will end.--Matt. 24:21, 22, 34.

    Page 238:

    The present wicked system of things, which extends worldwide, entered its last days in 1914, and some of the generation alive then will also be on hand to witness its complete end in the “great tribulation.”

    Live Forever Book (1989 Edition), Page 154:

    After drawing attention to the many things that have marked the period from 1914 onward, Jesus said: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things [including the end of this system] occur.” (Matthew 24:34, 14) Which generation did Jesus mean? He meant the generation of people who were living in 1914. Those persons yet remaining of that generation are now very old. However, some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. So of this we can be certain: Shortly now there will be a sudden end to all wickedness and wicked people at Armageddon.

    Some of the generation living in 1914 will see the end of the system of things and survive it__________________________________________

    The Watchtower, August 15th 1992 Issue, Page 9:

    The magazine now known as The Watchtower is freely available to visitors. Since 1879 this magazine has grown in circulation to over 15 million copies semimonthly in 111 languages. It directs individuals to the Bible's promise that some of the generation of 1914 will be alive to see good physical and spiritual health restored to mankind. (Isaiah 33:24)

    Proclaimers Book (1993), Pages 715-716:

    It is similar with those keeping on the watch today. They fully realize that the deeper we get into this time of the end, the more challenging it will be to keep in expectation of Jesus' coming. But they have not lost faith in Jesus' words: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matt. 24:34) The expression “these things” refers to the various features of the composite “sign.” This sign has been in evidence since 1914 and will culminate at the “great tribulation.” (Matt. 24:21) The “generation” that was alive in 1914 is fast dwindling. The end cannot be far off.__________________________________________

    Our Kingdom Ministry, October 1993 Issue, Page 8:

    The purpose of Awake! is stated clearly on page 4 of each issue: “This magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.__________________________________________

    Awake!, November 8th 1994 Issue, Page 10:

    The Real Significance of 1914

    AS INDICATED on page 4, “this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.”

    This time of the end is, however, to be a relatively short period--stretching over one generation. (Luke 21:31, 32) The fact that we are now 80 years beyond 1914 indicates that we can soon expect the deliverance that God's Kingdom will bring. This means that we will see “the lowliest one of mankind”--Jesus Christ--take complete control of “the kingdom of mankind” and bring about a peaceful and just new world.--Daniel 4:17.


    The Watchtower, November 1st 1995 Issue, Pages 18-20:

    Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term “generation” as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics.

    In line with the above, professor of history Robert Wohl wrote in his book The Generation of 1914: “A historical generation is not defined by its chronological limits . . . It is not a zone of dates.” But he pointed out that World War I created “an overwhelming sense of rupture with the past,” and he added: “Those who lived through the war could never rid themselves of the belief that one world had ended and another begun in August 1914.” How true that is! It focuses on the crux of the matter. “This generation” of mankind since 1914 has experienced appalling changes. It has seen the earth drenched with the blood of millions. Warfare, genocide, terrorism, crime, and lawlessness have erupted worldwide. Famine, disease, and immorality have stalked our globe. Jesus prophesied: “You also, when you [his disciples] see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, This generation will by no means pass away until all things occur.”--Luke 21:31, 32.


    Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy today, “this generation” apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ’s presence but fail to mend their ways.

    No human can say when that end will be, but we know that the end of “this generation” of wicked people will come once the witness has been given to God’s satisfaction “to the most distant part of the earth.”

    The Watchtower, June 1st 1997 Issue, Page 28:

    Many scriptures confirm that Jesus did not use “generation” with regard to some small or distinct group, meaning only the Jewish leaders or only his loyal disciples. Rather, he used “generation” in condemning the masses of Jews who rejected him. Happily, though, individuals could do what the apostle Peter urged on the day of Pentecost, repent and “get saved from this crooked generation.”--Acts 2:40.

    In that statement, Peter was clearly not being precise as to any fixed age or length of time, nor was he tying the “generation” to any certain date. He did not say that people should get saved from the generation that was born in the same year Jesus was or the generation that was born in 29 C.E. Peter was speaking about the unbelieving Jews of that period--some perhaps being rather young, others being older--who had been exposed to Jesus' teaching, had seen or heard of his miracles, and had not accepted him as Messiah.

    That evidently is how Peter understood Jesus’ use of “generation” when he and three other apostles were with Jesus on the Mount of Olives. According to Jesus’ prophetic statement, Jews of that period--basically, Jesus' contemporaries--were going to experience or hear of wars, earthquakes, famines, and other evidences that the end of the Jewish system was near. In fact, that generation did not pass before the end came in 70 C.E.--Matthew 24:3-14, 34.

    It must be acknowledged that we have not always taken Jesus’ words in that sense.


    So the recent information in The Watchtower about “this generation” did not change our understanding of what occurred in 1914. But it did give us a clearer grasp of Jesus' use of the term “generation,” helping us to see that his usage was no basis for calculating--counting from 1914--how close to the end we are.__________________________________________

  • JT

    All I can say is I wish you well

  • confuzcious


    JT is right about wife leaving because of spiritual endangmement.

    Becareful where you are treading....

  • scotsman


    I wish you luck too, but suggest you think carefully about what JT says. The mindset of the Elders, no matter how laid back, is closed. I was a laid back Elder on an individual basis but if operating as part of the 'body' you end up drifting towards the rules. The Elders are appointed by the WTBTS and therefore have to operate by its rules. If you breath words that are remotely apostate, no matter how legitimate or heartfelt, they'll more than likely come down like the proverbial ton of bricks.

    Say you're researching, be vague, say you'll try and come to more meetings, then do what the Hell you like. If they see no change they may well give up if, as you say, they've not shepherded you much before.

    And be careful with the recording equipment. If it gets discovered it puts you in a really bad light.

    All the best.

  • jgnat

    Jourles, I think you will be all right. You have shown remarkable composure in the past when you have run in to your old JW friends. My bet is that you will make those guys squirm, without them being able to finger what exactly you said that was so terribly wrong.

  • JT

    scotsman says

    I was a laid back Elder on an individual basis but if operating as part of the 'body' you end up drifting towards the rules. The Elders are appointed by the WTBTS and therefore have to operate by its rules. If you breath words that are remotely apostate, no matter how legitimate or heartfelt, they'll more than likely come down like the proverbial ton of bricks.

    you point is so well taken, the reaction of an indiviual elder who is over at your house for a beer is quit different many times when they are serving in THIER OFFICAL CAPACITY with A FELLOW ELDER-

    in many cases both elders may actually privately agree with all your points , but so as not to look DISLOYAL in front of a fellow elder many times they will try to out trump each other in who is more loyal to the org- i have seen this so many times, where an elder by himself will talk freely and openly, yet put him beside a fellow elder and you many times will not reconize them.

    As i have always said i believe that the NET "THANG' is the most powerful tool anyone who is having doubts or leaving wt needs for it provides all of us with real life exp-

    in the case of this poster i "assume" that he has never been an elder, which puts him at a big disadvantage in terms of how elders many times think, esp as a group

    by coming here to the net a person can gleam INSIDE, INFORMATION, VIEWS, ATTITUDES AND THE APPROACH that will often times be used

    in my 7 yrs on the net, i have seen so many folks get swallowed up by the rules, policies, and procedures of the org - here the Net "THANG" gives one that insight-



    JT is right about wife leaving because of spiritual endangmement.

    Becareful where you are treading....

    confusious, i agree with you he needs to tread lightly what stuck out was when he stated his wife is a die hard jw- NOT GOOD- ESP IF YOU PLAN ON
    "Spitting" in the elders face- understanding the mindset of a jw is the key to understanding how to deal with anyone connected to this org. I certainly hope all goes well, but if his wife is die hard, he is risking alot, and for what?? since these guys don't love him, don't pay his bills, will not be there when he is sick, will not help him pay rent this month or next- having a fall out with them means nothing, BUT his wife-- WELL THAT IS A HORSE OF A DIFFERENT COLOR since this is an open forum i would suggest focusing on helping his wife get out, slowly but steady you if the elders shut completely down NO BIG DEAL-- BUT if his actions result in his wife shutting down completely that ain't good i recall when i used to talk to Lady "C" and she would say "Don't take away my hope" and before it was all over with she left before i did- smile like i mentioned i only hope that he fully understands once the ball starts rolling it can't be stopped- i have always advised folks to do things where they are in control as to letting others be in control- for i would hate to hear that some "C&CM" recommended that his wife roll-- just my 2

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