What do you think of the ransom as proof of Jehovah's love?

by AlainAlam 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AlainAlam

    Consider these excerpts from the Bible and the publications:

    • “No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends” (Joh 15:13)
    • “For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die. But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” (Ro 5:7, 8)
    • “If He did not withhold the gift of His dear Son, Then never doubt He’ll give the strength you need.” (Song 38)
    • “God’s love for humans is so great that he does not withhold good from them regardless of the cost to himself.” (w15 11/15 p. 20 par. 15)
    • “At great personal cost to himself and to his beloved Son, Jehovah provided a propitiatory sacrifice for sins.” (w96 3/15 p. 22)

    To put it simply, here is what I don’t agree with: Jesus died (slept) for three days and was then resurrected. How is that so great of a sacrifice? Something that validated my thoughts and feelings was w13 9/15 p. 32 Questions From Readers: “Jesus did not give way to tears because Lazarus died ... To Jesus, raising Lazarus from death would be like a parent waking his child from a nap. So there was no reason for him to be pained over Lazarus’ death itself.” This is basically what I am thinking of: There was no reason for Jehovah to be pained over Jesus’ death itself.

    Today, as an apostate, I no longer believe in Jehovah, Jesus or the Bible. But I'm still interesting in knowing what you guys think of it. Did you ever think about it when you were a Witness or when you left? Do you think I'm missing something? I'd love to hear your comments!

    Side note: In previous posts, many people posted off-topic posts or posts that accused of being an undercover JW, biased, a troll, and other stuff. This was an annoyance. I kindly ask you to refrain from hijacking this thread. If you'd like to discuss anything else with me, please invite me to another thread or send me a private message. Thank you very much!

  • DesirousOfChange

    At this point in time, I tend to agree with Nelson Barbour (who was the early cohort of Chas Russell): Christ's death was no more a settlement of the penalty of man's sins than would the sticking of a pin through the body of a fly and causing it suffering and death be considered by an earthly parent as a just settlement for misdemeanor in his child."

  • AlainAlam

    Aha, yes. But I wonder how someone who holds that opinion could consider himself a Christian. I once tried to study it, but got lost in theological details I couldn't understand :) Back then, I was still a Witness and I wasn't doubting the value of the ransom anyway.

  • cofty

    For God so loved the world that he asked his son to give up a weekend.

  • waton
    Questions From Readers: “Jesus did not give way to tears because Lazarus died ...

    AA: give the full quote please, because: did Jesus not weep in the bible story? and

    The whole ransom story is a denouement of the talking snake episode. No talking reptiles today, because: The talking snakes where left speechless forever when they saw the arch float above Everest. besides:

    The god of bible story fame takes liberties with the strict laws of nature in his storied miracles , but why does he have to adhere with the "eye for an eye, life for life" provision of Moses? to keep the universe free from unavenged bloodguilt?

    How about killing the "murderer from the beginning " instead? OH yeah, being made perfect, he ceased to be so when he. a son of god too, activated the snake. for goodness sake.

  • AlainAlam

    waton, it says he cried because he felt compassion toward those crying, not because he himself was sad at Lazarus' death since he knew he was going to resurrect him.

  • waton
    it says he cried because he felt compassion toward those crying

    AA amazing the mind reading that wt writers always seem to be able to do seamlessly. Jesus, according to them: :" I better sob because all of them are really crying" . typical wt-think. all for show, joking at the funeral talks.

    So, does that mean the 2 great J's have to feel no compassion because they know within a day or two by their reckoning, they will resurrect them all?

    The talking snakes would be speechless.

  • StephaneLaliberte

    I never understood the logic behind the “ransom” teaching.

    God's so loved the world that he sent his son to a certain and atrocious death so that he would not kill everyone. In the meantime, he has let everyone die, over thousands of years. What’s the worst death you can imagine? It is likely that it happened to someone since Jesus gave his life. Many who had a personal relationship with God as well!

    Pay a ransom to who? Death? God created everything… life and thereby, death. If you say: "Death is the absence of life!". Than death is not a thing, it's a metaphor, it represents something, but what? God himself? Who exactly is the ransom paid to?

    What it to prove that a human can remain faithful to the end? Could he not simply create another Adam and Eve? Restart the experience? Why make billions upon billions suffer and die? If it was to prove that humans without God would never be as happy as without him, wouldn’t his point been made as soon as Adam and Eve started getting old and experience back pain?

    And how is Jesus an equivalent ransom? Demi-god is heavier in the balance than the first man, is he not? Jesus made miracles, talked to God and had infinite knowledge! He had special powers like a super hero! It’s like an athlete on enhancement drugs; it invalidates the result, it’s not fair, it’s not justice.

  • blubberyk9

    Just my 2 cents worth here:

    What if Jesus death wasn't a sacrifice? What if Jesus allowed things to work out as they would on this planet because he knew that in order for the Comforter to come, he had to leave...? What if the whole purpose of His life was to reveal His Father and make a start to setting things straight?

    I find the biblical accounts just too difficult to accept hook, line, and sinker.

    As some may remember (from my first topic post), I believe God is love. With that in mind, how could a fair, loving, just God demand a brutal sacrifice from his blameless and innocent Son? No, the reason I do not believe the Bible accounts is because my litmus test is: Does the thing in question reveal God's Love? If it does not, I do not find it credible.

    There is more to man's history than revealed in the biblical accounts! The Bible also lacks a good explanation of why we find ourselves as we are.

  • waton

    One can be flippant about the ransom idea. In times past when suffering of humans was greater, the need for relief more urgent, the hope of redemption inspired great art like : jesus, men's desire



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