Are ALL criticisms of the Society justified?

by logansrun 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • hillary_step


    For example, after being cheated by Dawn Pierson out of about $1,500 when I was a regular pioneer, the elders did not intervene although I repeatedly asked them to. To this day, Dawn Pierson owes me that money. I took her on a trip to Washington DC with me and charged her portion on my American Express Card, which I had at the age of 19.

    Do you want me to issue a contract? My point is that Dawn Pierson's are everywhere and while it is true that the WTS likes to pretend that this type of person are rare within its ranks, it is a pretense. But it has to be said that while I have been cheated and maligned by many a Witness, I would not neccessarily judge the core of doctrines that make up a religion or some other tight social group by the behavior of some of its adherents. If this were the case, would XJW's fare much better under such personal scrutiny?

    I would never have left the WTS because of the conduct of some of the JW's within the congregation, as I would also know an equal number that would never lie, or cheat, or steal. It was the unravelling of doctrine that outed me. As I say, this is just my opinion for whatever it is worth.

    As ever kindest regards to you Lisa - HS

    Edited by - hillary_step on 2 February 2003 16:4:18

  • hillary_step

    Hello Minimus,

    Hillary, so glad to see you on board lately. Regarding those irritations that involve ANY human being, not just Witnesses, I see your point. But, Jehovah's Witnesses are supposed to be different

    Thank you for your kind words. An injury has left me housebound lately so while recuperating I am catching up on Board life.

    JW's are supposed to be different but they are not, but that in itself does not make the teachings of the WTS invalid. The WTS bases its teachings on a core set of doctrines, almost all are universally flawed. It is the inbuilt error in these doctrines that often lead to the strange behavior of many JW's.

    Best regards - HS

  • Brummie
    Does the GB know they are misleading it's followers? Do they not believe the doctrines they are promulgating?

    Yes they do know they are misleading people, I realised this when I saw them quoting out of old Watchtower material and when I went to check it out from the old WTowers they had totally twisted what the original Watchtower had said. They knew what it said originally, they knew they had lied about what it said. Thats not a un-nessecary critisism, I saw it with my own eyes. They KNOW they are lying sometimes, however what they have no comprehension of is "personal responsibility", so, as in all cults, the end justifies the means. They are trying to glorify God so does it matter is a little lie is thrown in? Only like minded people could justify them and agree with them.

    They KNOW they are lying on the blood issue. They KNOW they have deliberately altered Scripture. The Paedophile issue has them lying through their teeth. You really think they dont know they are lying?

    They dont believe all the doctrines they are promulgating either, the "generation" doctrine was snuffed by a lot on the GB, they even wanted to make the generation doctrine begin from 1957 because many of them didnt swollow the 1914 thing. Cof C documents other lies. Most of us "apostates" knew years before it happened that they would change this doctrine, they didnt believe it, they KNEW they were teaching error, they just taught it to keep the peace.

    : Are ALL criticisms of the Society justified?

    No, not all, but to call them liars, deceivers, wolves in sheeps clothing, murderers, swindlers.. is not an unjustified critisism, its a factual observation. Can we really then get upset is someone calls them a name that sounds insulting ? What can be worse than being all of the above? Who really is the criminal here?


  • LDH
    . It was the unravelling of doctrine that outed me.


    I totally get what you're saying. But make room for the rest of us. You know, the ones who always found the doctrine boring to begin with. For us, it was the realization that JWs are regular human beings, not some hand-picked God worshippers that made us wake up.

    Case in point.

    When I moved to Fresno, this is what I experienced the first three times I went to the Hall. (different halls).

    1. An elder who, during his public talk, advised us all not to be jealous of 'worldy' people who owned RVs. (Recreational Vehicles.) After all, he stated, we would be the ones driving them around in the new system because their present owners would be DEAD!!!! I was horrified and shocked. But I looked around and the Stepford wives were just giggling, giddy with the thought of having a 40 foot RV without working for it!
    2. A young woman with four young children struggling to control them, forcing them to sit still during the meetings. NOT ONE GOT DAMNED person lifted their finger to help her, but instead, looked down their noses at her and gave her dirty looks. I walked out.
    3. The memorial, where the young Mexican-American sisters were dressed like PUTAS, papi.

    Yep, it was an eye-opener. I rapidly came to the conclusion that these people were just as messed up as the congregation I grew up in.

    Different reasons will cause different people to leave the 'spoof.' We should make allowances for all types, is all I'm saying.


  • ISP

    Logans run,

    Do the GB know the truth? i.e. They are not 'mouthpieces' or a FDS. Of course they do. The esoterics of the GB was blown apart by Ray Franz who wrote the 'Aid' book when he was not a GB member without any meaningful input or supervision by the 'GB'. They would however present it as from them.When he got on the GB, he could see that when those doors close, nothing special happens. I am entirely satisfied that those at the top know its all a game. The game at the moment is damage limitation.


  • RandomTask

    I think doctrine is only important to very few JWS these days. I know that I myself was a "doctrine geek", but your average JW isnt really high on doctrine anymore. In fact, there has been a definite de-emphasis on doctrine and more of an emphasis on "we are definitely the true religion because we say we are" and "arent we just the greatest religion, because we say so". Most witnesses I knew when I got out were just sort of brean dead at the meetings. I mean they are as strong as they always were when it comes to wanting to refute their religion, they still stick their fingers in their ears up to their elbows. They just don't really have any basis to have a doctrinal discussion anymore, because they don't really know much about it.

    This gives the society more power of course when it comes to control. Its hard to refute something you dont know about anyway. I mean us apostates have to educate the average JW these days on what exactly they DO believe and then of course our credibility is shot with them anyway because we are "refuting the true word". Ignorance is power man, for the Watchtower Society.

    Actually the one thing that does get people thinking is when they see examples in the congregation of people who are supposed to be "reighteous" acting in a way that would make so called "worldly" people blush. People who take advantage of their position or priveleges in the congragation are everywhere now and the hypocricy is becoming more and more apparent when the rank and file JW sees it swept under the rug usually by the elders.

  • Etude

    Hmmm A lot of good points here, Logansrun, but stay tuned. One of the reasons I joined the Jehovahs Witnesses organization was because I thought I had found the TRUTH. Im a lover of the truth. When I found I didnt have it after all and subsequently my world crushing down upon me, I because a skeptic. I took a course in Logic in college in order to get to the fundamental question of what is truth. So, I can see why one should not accept outright statements as true about anything without checking the validity of the facts (that is called deductive reasoning). But thats a personal responsibility (caveat emptor). I saw quite a bit of debating on the subject of how the Organization is portrayed right here on this newsgroup on another thread. There was one difference though, most people spoke about individuals being good and/or bad in the Organization. To me, thats a great distinction. I contributed for the argument that there is a great deal of genuinely good people in the Jehovahs Witnesses organization.

    I havent been on this newsgroup for long and Ive only joined nearly 20 years after I left the Organization. And when you say: It's not like the GB gathers together on Wednsday mornings and says, It's not like the GB gathers together on Wedn[e]sday mornings and says, "Let's can we make people miserable and lie to them?", I completely agree with you. But the fact that they are not purposeful or duplicitous in their decisions and edicts for the flock does not make them any less responsible for all the hurt and consequences that ensue. Even if they didnt cause any hurt, solely on principle, its very difficult to cast an organization that manipulates history and morality as doing some good. Their deeds negate any good that they may have done. And like Francois, I cant think of anything good that they (as an organization) have done in any community. I can only think of things they have done in order to perpetuate themselves and their doctrines. That does not deny the members capacity for having humane feelings, but Gizmo is right: Im sure Hitler loved and was kind to some people too. So are some All-American individuals who dote on their children and grandchildren and yet go out and lynch another person because he or she happens to be black. Our laws allow people to be put to death for that. But, those are examples of individuals, and as in the case of Hitler, it does not condemn an entire country (Germany or the U.S.) as all bad. A good parallel would more like a corporation that knowingly is responsible for harming citizens because of a product they make. We punish the corporation and the individuals responsible for such things. Alas, their deeds have not yet caught up with the Watchtower Society, at least on the obvious things like the pedophile issue.

    I dont see a way to make them pay on the moral side of things (not the policies that actually violate the law). As a condition for coming back into the fold after I was disfellowshiped, I told the elders that I had written to the Organization asking them to explain to me why hundreds of people (Witnesses) had died in Malawi for not being able to carry a political party membership in violation of Jehovahs law and why brothers in Mexico were able to obtain with an overt bribe a card that certified that they had served in the military without violating their conscience. The Societys answer to my letter was to send the elders over to my house. The elders answer to my question was to refer me to the Society for an answer. Willingly or unwillingly, purposefully or ignorantly, theres too much blood on their hands and I cant think of any good that they have done that can cancel that. Yes, they taught me something about the Bible, but I think had I not met them, I would have learned any way. Most people are not confident of that, just like my mother, and thats probably the main reason why she doesnt leave. She doesnt think she can find good biblical instruction anywhere else. It shows how good a job the Witnesses have done on her.

    Bottom line is that we should be cautions as snakes when it comes to swallowing anybodys statements as truth. Im the same way when I read a newspaper. The Watchtower house has to come down. Just because it has plenty of room and modern conveniences does not make it livable. Its foundation is sinking and its structural integrity will not pass inspection. I would hope that something takes its place. I would love to be reunited with all the good people I knew while I was there. But I would not walk through the door of that house until its rebuilt and the people responsible for its present conditions are evicted.


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