A Story About Faith

by jgnat 32 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  LoneWolf

  Xander ---

  Again, I must disagree, although I must say that I appreciate your thoughts and the tone of this discussion.

  Note that in both cases, you are basing your understanding on a PAST HISTORY. That is not what they were advocating - what the original post comes out in favor of is blind faith - faith with no reason to believe.

  Not really. It is true that there is such an apparent difference at first glance, but that is only a narrow view of it. The history comes in when looked at with a broader scope. Millions of men and women have fallen in love in the past --- and made a success of it. Knowing that this is possible, this couple yearn for it themselves. Most people have seen the success others enjoy and noticed some of the qualities that have contributed to that success. They have confidence in themselves and have studied the personality of their prospective partner with a view towards how well their personalities mesh. They see some of the same qualities that made the successful ones possible. This too is history in that same sense, and is anything but blind faith or its synonym, gullibility.

  Don't get "hope" and "faith" mixed up either. It is possible to have faith without hope, just as it is possible to have hope without faith. One of the biggest differences between them is that faith has an element of personal control and choice, especially in regards to whether to exercise it or not. For instance, one can fall out of an airplane and hope to survive when he hits the ground. Hope is all he has, for the situation is entirely out of his hands.

  On the other hand, if he strapped on a parachute before he falls, now he has faith that he will survive, for there are actions he can take to ensure it. This principle explains your words here:

  In any case, if you have reason to believe something is true, it's probably not best to say you have 'faith' it is true, as that immediately implies you hope it is the case with no facts.

  No, again you are demonstrating a lack of understanding of the difference between faith and gullibility. (Although I can't blame you, for I think the word "faith" is one of the most misused words in the English language.) Yes, you can hope something is true. When something strengthens that hope to the point where you are willing to take action on that hope, then that is faith. Hope and gullibility need no foundation. Faith cannot exist without it. (Yes, there are wrong foundations. Pompous asses bellaring "I am holy!" is one of the leading ones.)

  However, faith and hope do have commonalities. With each of them, one can have a small or large amount. They will vary in individuals and from time to time.

  Xander, this is one of the biggest things that I hold against this modern generation, beginning with the boomers. In their synicism they have systematically destroyed faith in anything, whether it be God, marriage, or much of anything else. Their view is a myopic one, for in their desire for instant gratification, they haven't taken the time to truly understand the deeper things of what they are discussing. The end result is that their "solutions" to the problems they wish to deal with, end up only making things worse. I don't think ever in my whole life that I have seen a worse batch of absolute nonsense than that which is passed off as the "enlightened" way men and women should approach marriage. Failure is built into it.

  You may wonder why I speak with such an air of authority on this matter. The biggest reason is that his poem above is, by and large, the history of my life. To most people it sounds like a storybook. It would never have been possible unless I understood well the differences between faith, hope, and gullibility, as well as using logic and reason in my choices of what to put faith in.

  Faith in the true sense, and used correctly, is indeed like a beautiful butterfly, for through it our thoughts can frolic in the sky.

  LoneWolf
• 

  jgnat

  Lone Wolf, I am impressed that you identify with my male character. As a woman writer, I can only go so far trying to figure out the male mind. If you can identify with him, that's great! A writer once told me (well, us. I was at a conference) that greater truths can be told in fiction. I am beginning to understand what he meant.
• 

  XandersEvilTwin

  Millions of men and women have fallen in love in the past --- and made a success of it. Knowing that this is possible, this couple yearn for it themselves.

  But they have no reason to think that a successful relationship is in store for them. Many relationships have ended. Many have continued with either or both partner miserable. And true, some have succeeded.

  I'm not saying they can't have a belief that their relationship would work based on prior experience. If they had, say, been living together for some number of years, been through hard economic times and good, war and peace, etc, and stuck together, then I'd say they would have reason to 'know' their relationship would succeed.

  We don't have any reason to think (given the limited data in the above story) any of that is true. Indeed, I would argue the author intentionally paints such things as NOT having happened - that their belief in their relationship's future success IS merely Heb 11:1 faith. IE., they just WANT it to be true.

  "faith" is one of the most misused words in the English language

  Well, it doesn't help that 9/10 of the definitions of 'faith' are not how you are using it above. In any case, I think the original author painted a picture designed to illustrate Heb 11:1 'faith' - IE, faith with no reason for it.

  Blind faith? No. Like I said above, I make a choice to have faith, with eyes wide open to the potential consequences.

  'Blind faith' does not mean faith with no understanding of consequences. 'Blind faith' is believing an event or result will occur based on no accurate information.

  You could say you have 'faith' that god created the universe. You have no proof of that, and if you simply wanted it to be true, that would be 'faith'.

  I should not say I have 'faith' in evolution, because there IS proof it occurs. It is more appropriate to say 'I KNOW evolution occurs' rather than 'I have FAITH it occurs'.

  One implies that there are facts to back your conclusion or belief up. The other implies there are not.

  (Yes, I am aware that there are alternative definitions of 'faith', but none seemed appropriate to the above story. It SEEMS that the author was advocating Heb 11:1 faith, and that is the type of faith I argue against)

  the "enlightened" way men and women should approach marriage. Failure is built into it.

  First define, of course, what you consider that 'failure' that is built into it. I would be quick to point our a marriage that ends is not NECESSARILY a failure. A marriage in which either or both parties are every unhappy IS, however.

  (sorry about the dup account posting, but I have been sitting on this post ALL DAY, and the stupid post counter just isn't resetting).
• 

  jgnat

  Xander, I admire your persistence with this subject. I echo Lone Wolf in that that I appreciate the tone of our discourse. It has remained civilized and courteous.

  I said,

  Blind faith? No. Like I said above, I make a choice to have faith, with eyes wide open to the potential consequences.

  And you replied,

  'Blind faith' does not mean faith with no understanding of consequences. 'Blind faith' is believing an event or result will occur based on no accurate information.

  How accurate does my information have to be before it is an informed choice rather than faith? And how would that be measured? What if my information gathering has disclosed clouds on the horizon, but I chose to speak words of faith anyways? Can people exceed expectations based on past performance? What if I chose to impart faith in others to help them succeed, regardless of the information at my disposal?

  Let's not talk about faith in past events. Or the use ancient prophecies to predict future ones and call it faith. I believe such faith is misguided and unhealthy. The JW's are not the only religion guilty of this, but they are a glaring example. It is simply embarrassing to see the lengths they will go to try and "prove" that their version of history is more accurate, even to the point of adjusting verses in the bible to make them fit a narrow world view. i.e. "If God meant us to fly, He would have given us wings." This version of "faith", a weird amalgam of pseudoscience and sloppy scholarship, is dependent on proofs. And readily disproved.

  I was presenting here the idea that faith in people, faith in relationships can be beautiful. And that self-designated faith custodians can be blind to it.

  I thought of another analogy today. Sex, a biological act, can be described in several ways. Depending on how it is described and the perspective of your audience, it may be viewed as beautiful, perverted, or funny-looking. Rape survivors may struggle for years to obtain a normal sex life. Sex, which can be a beautiful act between lovers, becomes a horrid perversion for a rape survivor. They may never completely recover. I consider the JW version of faith to be a perversion, and the way they impart doctrine to their faithful amounts to Spiritual Rape. I mean, here is a religion that spouts a constant stream of invective towards ALL OTHER religions. When the WT in turn betrays their followers, what is left for the people to believe in?

  Since my story did manage to hit a chord, and some called it beautiful, I think I have managed to touch on something basic in our common experience. Whether faith is viewed as beautiful, perverted, or funny-looking has a lot to do with the perspective of the audience.

  Edited by - jgnat on 28 January 2003 21:46:24
• 

  xenawarrior

  Checking in as one who thought it was beautiful !!!! Jgnat- I love your writing. You have it girl !!! You have the ability to draw me right in every time !!!

  Thank you !!!!!! Please keep them coming !!!

  XW of the "jgnat fan club" class
• 

  Big Tex

  Wow. Fantastic story. You presented it well and the life progression was very moving. I'm curious, did you write this just off the top of your head or did you work on it a lot? Thanks for sharing it.
• 

  outnfree

  jgnat,

  Quite wonderful! Thank you. I agree that we need to learn to love [have faith in?] ourselves and others to enjoy a successful life.

  xander,

  What a bucket of cold water you threw on this uplifting thread. I think a lot of your critique is pure semantics. I also think a good, deep knowledge of one another is what allows the characters to tell one another that they "have faith" in them. The fiancee is jittery, but the love and commitment is real, as her fiance reminds her. The dismayed husband is relieved when his wife understands that this "worse" moment will pass and "has faith" that the relationship will endure. The daddy "has faith" that he knows just what the change in attitude of his little swimmer is really about and that his encouragement and true belief in her desire to be just as good as the other kids. As husband, the man wants his wife to know he's not laughing AT her but alongside her as she carries out her determination to finish getting the degree she gave up when they married. As patient, the man affirms his trust in his doctor due to their previous shared experiences in treating his cancer. As brother, his faith that he has lived his life in the manner that is best for him enables him to be kind, but firm with his upset sister who fears for his eternal destiny.

  It's a fine piece of writing, not naive at all.

  naive, a. unaffectedly or, sometimes, foolishly simple; childlike; artless; unsophisticated.

  Rather, the writing is deceptively simple; evoking great sensitivity; wise; philosophical; well-planned.

  Bravo, jgnat!

  out
• 

  Gizmo

  Sometimes In life all it takes are the simple words you hear in hushed tones from someone you Love, like, "I have faith in you" to give you strength and courage.

  What's so bad about that? Why does everything have to be analyzed and scrutinized to death? Does everything we say do or write have to have hidden meaning?

  Freud said "sometimes a cigar is just that, a cigar"

  And I say "sometimes a nice story is just that, a nice story" if it makes you feel good, is that wrong?

  Go on now analyze and scrutinize what I said.

  Sheesh

  For you jgnat
• 

  Xander

  FWIW, I have no fault with the story, merely the use of 'faith' as the device it was based on. Other, less controversial thoughts could have been used (with a little more background to support each situation) that would not have made it seem a near religious experience to plow forth with life in each situation.

  In these cases, this nebulous faith is used as some form of deux ex machine - IE., look at this situation, seems bad, but don't worry here comes FAITH to save the day!

  The resulting effect is not to my liking - although, to someone of a religious bent, I could see how it would be a very encouraging story.
• 

  jgnat

  Xenawarrior - You found my story! It means so much that I can depend on your fandom. Support like yours keeps me writing.

  Outnfree now you have made me get all misty! Those are absolutely lovely things to say. Thank you.

  Big Tex I am flattered that you are curious about how this story was crafted. I have been working on my writing skills the last few years, applying some of the things I learned as an artist. It was a big eye-opener for me to find out that finished art and finished books do not come flowing out of the artist complete. We always start with rough. This story was easier than most, because I had been reflecting on the meaning of faith. My dander was up, and I needed a way to express an intense idea. It took about a day of deep thinking to come up with a basic structure of the story (Whats that dear? Sorry, I wasnt listening.) It took another day to set up the dialogues. I do a lot of editing as I go. Is the character believable? Would this man admit emotional weakness in front of his wife? Is she too whiny? Would the girl go butterfly hunting with her dad? Naah. Too hokey. How do kids act on the edge of the pool? Hey, its obvious shes about six or seven! I dont have to say it! Do I have to say Kitchen Table, or can it be implied? Then I check that the flow makes sense. Did that sentence add to the story? Are the sentences in the right order? A lot of composition lessons in painting can be applied to writing as well. Early hook, ebb and flow, fast and slow, bright and dark. Dont drag out the ending.

  Gizmo thank you.

  Xander You deserve a response, since you have obviously put a lot of thought in to these posts. But I am at a loss to what I can add to what I have said already. People have their own tastes, and this is not the first time that someone has told me they dont like my art. I dont take it personally. Sorry, I won't remove the word faith. I wrote the story to talk about that very thing. It's not like I didn't warn ya from the title.