America's Illusions of Grandeur

by pettygrudger 29 Replies latest jw friends

  • pettygrudger
    pettygrudger

    Regardless of how complicated everyone wants to make the Iraq situation, there is one point that continuously seems to be ignored or overlooked in all the debating going on....that is the fact that Bush has said he will go with or without the UN's support. He has also said we're going with or without the citizen's of America's support.

    WMD - you can say these words over & over again, but it remains painstakingly clear that Saddam has never used these weapons against the United States - nor could he at this point. In fact, he has only used them "defensively".He'd be lucky to get them over to Isreal (look at the Gulf War - how many scud's actually hit?). Arguments of links with Osama go against everything I have heard & read from Professors & others that study Arab relationships. Sadam would rather jump in bed with the United States (almost) than have these extreme fundamentalist groups getting a stronghold within his country. His sovereignty is at stake - and we all know what he is most concerned about is keeping himself in power. For him to align himself w/groups like al-Quida would be about the same as the US doing so. It could happen - but it would be a desparate last resort attempt of his - and would most likely be a "revenge" situation. Yes, Sadam is a bad guy - & EVERYONE knows it. Saudi Arabia has been suggesting that a coalition be made to overthrow Sadam - without war. This goes overlooked & ignored by the war hawks - they simply are not interested in just getting Sadam out - so what do they want? Inquiring minds would like to know. Everyone in that region wants to get Sadam out - but only the US and those they can bully into agreement are ones that want a military invasion headed by the US. The situation in the middle east is very delicate - and our going in to overthrow Iraq by force is not only frowned upon - it will throw instability into that region like never before - if the US does this alone without the backing of the UN. Another overlooked & ignored fact - those that have the most to lose at the hands of Iraq (all middle eastern countries for the most part) - want nothing to do with the United States "solution"!

    We didn't get this kind of resistence with the Gulf War - we certainly didn't get this resistence with Afghanistan. We are getting it now - so perhaps American's should ask themselves WHY?!!!!!

    I am an American & I love my country. If this prolonged invasion of Iraq happens - its very possible that my son will be involved as well. So to say I have a vested interest is an understatement.

    But, where does America get off "policing the world" in the manner in which they do? Where do we get off thumbing our fingers up at the UN & yet expect all other countries except ourselves (and Isreal) to abide by the UN? Why are we part of an organization that we don't respect, and will do what we want regardless. The double-standard is insulting to the rest of the world - and I don't blame them. We are not "more intelligent". We are not "wiser". We are certainly not more understanding of the middle east than the middle easterners. The only thing we are is stronger militarily at this point.......and I believe most great powers got to exactly this point right before they fell. It wasn't their lack of military strength that toppled all great historical country's - it was their arrogance & their believing themselves invincible. We can stand up to any country one-on-one - of this there is no doubt. But can we really risk having to stand up to alot of them that join together because of the threat that America poses to their self-interests?

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim
    The situation in the middle east is very delicate - and our going in to overthrow Iraq by force is not only frowned upon - it will throw instability into that region like never before - if the US does this alone without the backing of the UN. Another overlooked & ignored fact - those that have the most to lose at the hands of Iraq (all middle eastern countries for the most part) - want nothing to do with the United States "solution"!

    Really, they want nothing to do with it? We have troops in Jordan, we have troops in Saudi, we have troops in Qatar, we have troops in Bahrain, we have troops in Kuwait. Yep, sounds like they want nothing to do with the US solution.

    EDITED TO SAY

    One other point. Congress has already authorized us of force. The American people have spoken.

    Edited by - Yerusalyim on 23 January 2003 10:49:33

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Pettygrudger,

    I wonder sometimes which American city some people would like Saddam to attack before they felt the US had justification for going after him?

    Their own, perhaps?

    How many dead American citizens would it take?

    Members of their own family, maybe?

    Themselves?

    I wonder if they're thinking that September 11, 2001 was a long time ago - we should forget about it and move on?

    Well, I don't agree. I believe the right to self defense exists. There are a few principles of self defense:

    1. Do not wait until you are hit before you act in your own defense. Only a fool thinks she has to take the first punch.

    2. The best defense is a strong offense: attack, attack, attack!

    3. Never fight fair. This is not a schoolyard boxing match.

    Edited by - Nathan Natas on 23 January 2003 10:35:26

  • roybatty
    roybatty
    He has also said we're going with or without the citizen's of America's support.

    When did he say this? I'd really like to see this quote.

    Also, when exactly WOULD you want the US to do something about Iraq? AFTER they have missles that can reach the US? Again, it's just like North Korea 10 years ago BEFORE they had nukes. Instead of using the military to stop the North Koreans from developing WMD, the Clinton admistration chose to bribe them with food. And the results? The NK developed these weapons anyway and now if we were to do something, our forces would be at risk of being nuked. Great situation indeed. And now you're willing to create an identical situation. Do people honestly believe that if the US doesn't do something, that Saddam won't return to developing WMD???

  • pettygrudger
    pettygrudger

    I'll reiterate

    Saudi Arabia has been suggesting that a coalition be made to overthrow Sadam - without war. This goes overlooked & ignored by the war hawks - they simply are not interested in just getting Sadam out - so what do they want? Inquiring minds would like to know.

    Exactly why does America have to be the one that "takes him out" by a complete military invasion? Saudi Arabia has been working on this plan for quite awhile, and it appears that the US is just going to ignore this plan.

    I'm not suggesting we only act defensively after attacked. Sadam is 1 man - just one......this war will cost the US BILLIONS of dollars - perhaps a billion dollar bounty on Sadam's head will do in 1 day what would take months to years to do if the citizens of Iraq feel that their lives are threatened & need to defend their country. Goes against the UN rules - but who cares about that? Certainly not the United States. My point is that if we are going to do what we want REGARDLESS of the UN - why not take a much easier way out & just put up a Wanted - Reward Dead or Alive Sign - make it a billion bucks & see how quick this situation is "resolved" w/not more than a nod & a wink from the world community at large. Then quickly send in much foreign relief with food, clothing, etc. to the people to establish good relations w/the next regime. Granted - its kinda pollyanna-ish - but its worth a try.

  • roybatty
    roybatty
    My point is that if we are going to do what we want REGARDLESS of the UN - why not take a much easier way out & just put up a Wanted - Reward Dead or Alive Sign -

    Because the problem isn't just Saddam but it's his whole political regime. If he were snuffed out, one of his cronies would simply take over. Besides, how would the US look if we started putting bounties on the head leaders? Talk about looking like a War Hawk.

    Just as taking out Hitler during WWII wouldn't have done much to stop the Nazi war machine, just taking out Saddam won't change things.

    BTW, why most countries don't want the US in interfer with Iraq is because they have their hands in Iraqs pockets. I'm willing to bet that bother Russia and France (two who oppose any war with Iraq) are violating the economic ban. Secondly, the last things Arab countries want is a mid-east country that has a truly democratic government. Can you imagine the people in Saudi Arabia or Jordan looking at a "free" Iraq and thinking "hmmmm..."

  • pettygrudger
    pettygrudger

    Who has the right to tell any country in the middle east that they have to be a truly democratic society?!!! That's another display of American arrogance - totally inappropriate for us to tell other governments how they should be run!

    Speaking of hands in Iraq's pockets - hmmm....I'm pretty sure if I investigated we'd find America's hands dipped in their pretty low too - like Chevron for example.....yeah yeah yeah - food for oil - yeah yeah yeah.

    And the bounty on Sadam's head? - part of Saudi Arabia's coup attempt plan - How is it that America can pay billions to do a total invasion of a country killing perhaps thousands of civilian lives in a war the majority of the world is saying is WRONG -, dictating what kind of country it should be after we've "taken over" - yet a bounty on 1 leader's head would be considered "inappropriate"? come on!!

  • roybatty
    roybatty
    Who has the right to tell any country in the middle east that they have to be a truly democratic society?!!! That's another display of American arrogance - totally inappropriate for us to tell other governments how they should be run!

    Tell them? I view the US as helping them. I'll even give you an example. Think about Germany during the 1930's. There was in place a treaty stating that they could not build up their military. What did they do? They built it back up. What did Europe (namely France and the UK) do? Nothing. Not until German has this massive military, has taken over a couple of countries does France and the UK do something. Too late. Result? Millions loose their lives.

    Have you wondered why there hasn't been any wars in Europe for the last 60 years? Because the US was smart enough to rebuild Europe with some far-sighted goals. One was to tie the European countries together econmicaly - thus the result was some time later the EU. These countries now depended on each other. One couldn't attack another without greatly harming it's own economy. The US also did a good job rebuilding Japan. One can only hope that these same goals would be used to build Iraq - which just might be a stepping stone to bring peace to the mid-east just as it has come to Europe.

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound
    One other point. Congress has already authorized us of force. The American people have spoken.

    That's nice, had they not, we would still be going to war, a member of bushes team was quoted last night on CNN, he's a dictator, now go away you communist.

    Edited by - Trauma_Hound on 23 January 2003 12:24:13

  • HyTech
    HyTech

    Pettygrudger

    I'm not an avid poster here, but every once in awhile I see a topic that is worth my time. (like this one)! As a TRUE American, I have to disagree with you about this. You seem to think that this is just about getting Saddam out of power and that we are just being a bunch of bullies in the schoolyard trying to take care of it. He will not let his regime die that easily. His family will be there to take over and continue his deadly reign. It is so much more complicated than that. And as for us going through with this regardless of any help or agreement from other countries through the UN, please remind me of why we need their support. Did you know that America has been replaced on the UN Human rights commission by the Sudan, for God's Sake! This is a country that still supports slavery! As far as I'm concerned, we should severe our ties with the UN. They are not doing us any good. I do understand that you have concerns because of your son's involvement with the inevitable war. Is it okay to take cover under America's freedoms, yet not fight for them? SOMETIMES THE TREE OF FREEDOM NEEDS WATERED WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS. I too have a son. I am thankful that both he and I will grow up in a country that is far superior morally that the rest of the world and have the freedom to be so. The essential human right to freedom needs to be protected. I am sure that when we put an end to Saddam's whole regime, the people of Iraq will be dancing in the streets! And as for America trying to make the whole world a Democracy, that would be okay if WE were a Democracy. (Just for future reference, we are a Liberty Republic!)

    This is not meant to be a personal attack. Please don't take it as such. I'm just getting a little annoyed at the anti-Americanism taking place in this country in defense of countries that are not anywhere near us in the human rights categories.

    Hy

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