"Bible Students" and 1919 (page 2)

minimus

Dannybear, was Rutherford's action ILLEGAL? Please provide support that his action was illegal.

First it is common knowlege that Rutherford directly opposed Charles Taze Russell's legal will in his usurpation of the presidency. Copy of which can be found in the Wt shortly after his death in 1916

Second his actions as regards the expelling of the four director's, taking over the British Branch and siezing of funds, along with eye witness accounts, indicate that he acted in an unlawful fashion. Although we will never know for sure if a court of law would have agreed, since none of the offended parties filed for redress.

Danny

minimus

Dannybear, I know the history of how JFR got to be the president. But, I still don't think that what he did was "illegal".But, being a good lawyer, I would think that he used every legal trick in the book to get away with what he did. Perhaps, I misunderstand.

artful

Thanks all for your comments!

DannyBear: Thanks for the input on the congregation arrangement, elders etc. Any idea when this was done? I will check out the book you mention. Just curious if the figures you suggest come from there? Namely: "1916 the total number of Bible Students was in the mere 10's of thousands. By the 1920's it was in the 100's of thousands". As these seem to be much higher than the WTS claims I have since found...see below.

Refinersfire: Some interesting observations regarding 1925-28. You are quite likely correct regarding the dumping of Russell's (chronological, and numeric calculations especially) theories during this time. What is the "JW in the DP" that you reference the 44,000 number from?

hooberus: Thanks for your "class, not a class, class again" point! I have read that before and it is a very good argument against the "light brighter" theory, as well as the choosing of the "slave class".

Blondie: Thanks very much for that reference in the Proclaimers book! This has helped me to find some other information regarding the numbers during that time:

1. 1914-1918 (during the time of Christ's inspection!!!) - the Proclaimers book (p 424) admits that there was a 20% decline in "Bible Students" from 1914-1918 (interestingly they don't mention a further decline in 1919 - just that there were 5,700 at that time). This decline is quite likely due to Russel's death in 1916 and the 8 being put in prison in 1918 - although I imagine that even more people left after the 8 were in prison from June 1918 to March 1919.

2. 1922 - Proclaimers book claims their numbers tripled from 1919 (no number is stated but I would assume approx. 15,000)

3. 1933 - Proclaimers p.443 claims that there were 19,268 Witnesses in Germany. However, "Jehovah's Witnesses Stand Firm Against Nazi Assault" video (and printed study material) claims there were 25,000 Witnesses in Germany in 1933!! Another WTS lie perhaps?

4. 1935 - 56,153 "Jehovah's Witnesses" worldwide - Proclaimers p.443.

Cheers
Artful

DannyBear

Artful,

On page 42 of Penton's Apocalypse Delayed under the subtitle of The New Covenant Schism he states in part:

"Consequently, several hundreds out of a total perhaps of 10,000 Bible Students seceeded."

This was in 1909 and the circumstance surrounded a dispute regarding the interpretation of the ransom sacrifice and to whom it applied.

Apparently what makes it so hard to define actual number's, is the almost unstructured manner the congregations were adminstered before Rutherford started his dictatorship.

Danny

edited to add: In 1927 Rutherford addressed a convention in Ontario Canada with over 15,000 in attendance.

Edited by - DannyBear on 12 January 2003 12:53:46

DannyBear

Here is another commentary by James Penton on subheading The Vindication of Jehovah's Name:

"An important factor behind such zeal was the doctine of the vindication of Jehovah's name, a doctrine still taught by Jehovah's Witnesses today. Under Russell, the central doctine of Bible Students had been that of the ransom atonement of Christ which was seen as the expression of God's love for mankind.

Consequently, to Russell and the Bible Students of his day, the New Testament was regarded as more important than the Old. Althugh they sometimes stressed the importance of God's wrath, it was not a primary doctrine to them.

Under Rutherford that all changed. Writing on page 320 of the book Jehovah, published in 1934, he stated boldly: 'God provided that the death of Christ Jesus, his beloved son, should furnish the ransom or redemptive price for man; but that goodness an loving-kindness toward mankind is secondary to the vindication of Jehovah's name.' The judge stressed how, by being faithful to thier commission, God's witnesses throughout history had had a part in vindication of the divine name. But the ultimate vindication of the Almighty would come at Armageddon when the wicked would be destroyed.

Using allegorical interpretation, Rutherford argued that in bringing down vengeance upon the wicked in the days of ancient Isreal, Jehovah was simply prefiguring what he would do in the last days of this wicked world.

So it became of ultimate improtance that men should choose: they would have to join with Jehovah, Christ, and the the Theocracy, or go down with the Devil and his system at the battle of of the great day of God the Almighty.

Significantly, the doctrine of the vindication of Jehovah's name was in many ways like John Calvin's doctine of the majesty of God. Equally significantly, it was no doubt a major factor in developing a burning, almost fanatic zeal in the Witnesses of the twentieth century just as Calvin's teaching had done among his followers in the sixteenth. That means that, like the Calvinists of that era, the Witnesses became ever more intolerant of everything and everyone not in harmony with God's new nation, the Theocracy, as they saw it."

Note: Paragraphs added for ease in reading.

I thought the above really helps to understand the mindset of jw's at that time, in comparison to thier earlier counterparts Bible Students.

Is it any wonder why so many could subject themselves to persecution, ridicule, jail time, and be happy about it? The judge had given them a doctrine that really could not be argued against. I mean how could anyone NOT want to actually provide 'vindication' of the God Almighty and his Theocratic earthly organization??

This doctrine alone is probably more responsible for the growth of Jw's in modern times, than any other one can point to. It is the stuff FANTACISIM is built on.

Danny

MacHislopp

Hello Artful,

here are some figures taken from the book

"Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine purpose" published by the

WBTS in 1959:

***(page 50) partial figures fr the Memorial 1915

15,430

***(page 73) partial figures for the Memorial 1917

05.04.1917 ........21,274

***(page73) partial figures for the Memorial 1919

13.04.1919 ..........17,961

***(page 96) "The tightening up of preaching responsability

began in 1920 when everyone in the congregation

who participated in the witness work was required to turn

in a weekly report. Before 1918 only colporteurs or pioneers

had reported their service acctivity."

...For the first year of reporting ,1920, there were 8,052

"class workers" and 350pioneers. (x)

(x) Footnote "The Watchtower " 1920, page 372

I'll come back later. Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp

MacHislopp

Hello Hooberus,

concerning your extremely interesting statement:

"Since the index summarizes the WT teachings up to July 1919 there was no FDS class for Jesus to appoint! I have a copy of the old index page ;;"

could you please scan the page??

Thanks, J.C.MacHislopp

MacHislopp

Hello everyone,

Danny Bear : thanks for your interesting and informative comments.

Minimus: I do believe that you can find an answer to your question in

a recent - excellent - post from RR :

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=44128&site=3

Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp

artful

James: thanks for the additional information on the Memorial attendance. This confirms what I had thought regarding a drop in membership during 1919.
The quote about the "tightening up" of the preaching reports in 1920 is also very interesting, and was obviously the beginning of the central HQ "keeping track" of the membership. What a bizarre requirement when you think about it - keeping a written record of the time you spend talking about God!!! Maybe God hands these report slips in to Satan every month to prove that there are people on earth "vindicating his name"! LOL

Speaking of vindicating God's name; thanks for your post Danny!

Cheers
Artful

"Bible Students" and 1919

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