Believing that Jesus is Jehovah or vice versa is not necessary to salvation. Although it is fun to read the opinions.
Robyn
Jesus Is God (John 1:1)
by JesusISJehovah 45 Replies latest watchtower bible
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peacefulpete
Once again the simple answer is that the Bible reflects the evolving theology of a group of disheartened and disappointed Jews who readily incorporated themes and metaphor from surrounding religious traditions. It is obvious that the earlier layers of text in the New Test. are not overtly Trinitarian yet in just a few years this teaching gained popularity so that we see verses like those in John 1:1 that do show a change in understanding their "Savior". The debate only exists among Bible literalists who fail to recognize the shiftng nature of religion.
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Marcos
To JesusISJehovah and all.
I am sincerely impressed by the scholarship evident on this thread! Another reason to continue visiting here.
2 points. #1. JesusISJehovah says:
he wanted the Jews to refer to him as I AM, and they spoke Yiddish.
I would believe that this is a typo except for the fact that you said it again in the same post. (Anyone) correct me if I am wrong but either the Germans have been around a lot longer than we give them credit for or your understanding of linguistics may be flawed. Yiddish is a Hebrew-German pidgin and only came into use as the Jews began living among the Germans. There is another, perhaps older, pidgin called Sehphardic (Spanish) that was and is currently spoken by the Marranos (Spanish for pig as the Jews were designated by their inquisitors) who are Spanish Jews who were expelled from Spain during the Inquisition. These people still live in North Africa, Asia Minor and in the Balkans as well as in Latin America.
As for the question of whether Jesus is Jehovah, I believe that he did make that claim in referring to himself as the I AM.
John 8:56-58. Jesus speaking to unbelieving Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!" Jesus was the great I AM from before the beginning of time; He existed before Abraham ever was. He is claiming here to be the I AM of the Old Testament. Verse 59 says the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but the Lord Jesus slipped away. The reason they wanted to stone Him was because stoning was the death penalty for blasphemy. He was claiming to be Yahweh--Jehovah--Almighty God--I AM. (Of course, it wasn't blasphemy when Christ claimed to be who He truly was!)
John 8:24. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins." In your Bible, it may read "if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be...."
John 18:4. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas and some priests and soldiers are about to take Jesus prisoner. "Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to Him, went out and asked them, 'Who is it that you want?' 'Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'I AM,' Jesus said. When He said, 'I AM,' they drew back and fell to the ground." The force of Jesus' claim to be Yahweh (I AM) was so powerful that it literally knocked the arresting officers and the Jewish priests off their feet!
Paraphrased from this site: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/claims.html
This is a new concept for me since I spent most of my early years as a JW.
Marcos
Edited for continuity. And because I had a hard time getting the formatting right!
Edited by - marcos on 31 December 2002 13:42:55
Edited by - marcos on 31 December 2002 13:46:12
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onacruse
elderepents:
my fault that i waste my time responding to unanswerable questions as these
Then why do you?
enjoy your research so that you can inherit the future!
Thanks for giving me your permission.
Craig
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IslandWoman
Hi Onacruse,
Thanks so much for the reference you provided. Many times, to me at least, it seems that when Bible scholars try to get technical or too deep they miss the point!
For instance take the argument on what was meant by the name Jehovah, or the Tetragrammaton. The book of Exodus was written by simple people to simple people, simple but not stupid certainly. I believe it must be admitted that, as you say, it is not possible at the present time to know for certain what the "name" meant to those people but I believe there is more than enough evidence that it did not simply mean a state of being. I thought it was great when you posted "I shall prove to be" or something along those lines rather than the "I AM" as the meaning of the verb form.
As for the "I AM" argument it is certainly faulty!
Exodus 6:2 "And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: 'I am Jehovah. And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them." (I use the NW here because unfortunately the other modern translations I have prefer to water down the Bible by using LORD in place of the name.)
As we all know the name "Jehovah" had been used before this time so there must be another meaning to the words "make myself known". If the name simply meant "I AM" in other words, "I exist", that was certainly nothing new to the Jews and for certain Abraham knew that God existed! Therefore the Name must have had a deeper meaning, it must have had a meaning of purpose or promise of action. Abraham did not see the fulfillment of promises made, neither did Isaac or Jacob but their descendants were about to, so the "Name" was about to become, it was about to be what it meant, what it promised. Similar to a man who tells his army to call him "deliverer" yet they keep getting whipped bad without delivery, then at some point he tells them they have not really known or experienced his name before but now they will know his name. They will know his name because he will live up to his name and what it means. Then he does proceed to "deliver" them. It is at that point he can then say: "I am deliverer". He is now what he claimed to be, what his name meant and so "he is" what he said he "will prove to be."
In my opinion the search for the "I AM" meaning or any other meaning is missing the point which was that God acted and his name foretold him as a God who acts, who fulfills promises.
Well, I just wanted to express these sentiments here. I have enjoyed this thread tremendously and truly appreciate your contributions.
Take care and have a great New Year!
IW
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JesusISJehovah
Thank you Marcos, that was a stupid mistake on my part. Anyway, one reason that we have not translated the original Yahweh, is because, for the umpteenth time, it is a derivation of the verb "to be", it was only used in reference to God. The reason that people have not translated it, is because it has lost meaning since the ancient times, and no one knows any more than the fact that it comes from "to be". There is no concrete definition, because the superstitious Jews never spoke it, and without active use of the word, it lost its meaning. This is why some translators translate it in different ways. IW is right though, in searching for the meaning, we need to look no further than Exodus 3:14. God says that He is, and all we need to recognize is that He exists: always.
-Me
Edited by - JesusISJehovah on 31 December 2002 18:9:8
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IslandWoman
JIJ,
You wrote:
There is no concrete definition, because the superstitious Jews never spoke it, and without active use of the word, it lost its meaning. This is why some translators translate it in different ways.
Wrong! We do not know the correct meaning for the same reason we do not know the correct pronunciation. God did not have it preserved! He had his reasons I am sure. Maybe it was to prevent super religious people from hypocritically abusing his name.
IW is right though, in searching for the meaning, we need to look no further than Exodus 3:14. God says that He is, and all we need to recognize is that He exists: always.
Congratulations on twisting and convoluting. "Christians" have led the way in twisting and convoluting the scriptures for 2000 years, so it's nothing for you to do the same to what some puny person like me writes!
You are not real.
IW
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Roddy
JesusIsJehovah >>In the OT, God says his name is "I AM" (Exodus 3:14). <<
Sorry but I don't buy it. Nowhere in the OT do we see anybody refering to God as "I AM". God was referred by His name.
>>It changes. In the OT, he wanted the Jews to refer to him as I AM, and they spoke Yiddish. We speak English, and because he hasn't designated to us what he wants to be called in English, we revert to the literal translation of the greek (Lord, God etc) or, in the case of the JW's, the Yiddish Jehovah.<<
Sorry but I don't buy that either.
I keep an open mind about things, but I think that Jesus and Jehovah are separate individuals. It really does take a lot of reaching to try to make the case that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person. The Jews were very monotheistic as per Deut 6:4. And Jesus didn't cast any of that aside at Mark 12:28. If he did, it would have not gone unnoticed and I would have expected to see two things: 1) A great deal of writing regarding the debate and discussion among the Jews on the new revelation that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person. 2) A great deal of writing regarding the debate and discussion the followers of Jesus would of necessity be having with the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles they were converting. All this is missing in the Scriptures.
Jehovah and Jesus are separate and unequal persons. Jehovah is God and Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
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Shakita
Dakota Red,
That was an excellent post. Thanks for all the details in relation to the John 1:1 brouhaha. The important thing is not to read a scripture with a preconceived notion to make it fit whatever the believer wants it to say. I like your point about only two gods being mentioned, not three, thus where is the trinity. Well, I have some research to do. Thanks again.
Mr. Shakita
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Carmel
And the Word was the perfect reflection of God. Simple.
carmel