Was Adam created immortal?

by Mr Bean 27 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Everything else you've offered is interpolation and interpretation based on post-sin Scripture.

    My position: Scripture simply does not say whether Adam was created with or without everlasting life or immortality, with or without a transformation pending. For that matter, Scripture doesn't even explicitly state that Adam and Eve were perfect.

    Craig,

    Yes some of what I have said is speculation. But scripture is clear on the fact that Adam or any man thereafter would not have lived on endlessly without access to the tree of life. So perfect or not this is not speculation but a refutation of Watchtower theology. That this something was the gift of immortality is not a guess either based upon the immortality our Lord gained for us many years later. Gods plan for man did not change. While not fully explained in Genesis it became a reality in Christ and that is why I was able to put all this together. Christ replaced Adam as the Father of mankind and that is why such comparisons can now be made. The only real difference in this plan for us was sin and time.

    Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adams transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    We can also gather from Genesis the fact that a period of training is required by God before such gifts will be bestowed upon us. This includes justification (something also essential for everlasting life), not just immortality. For Jews such assurance was the Law which assured a better resurrection for them. Faithful followers in Christ under the New Covenant have the hope that they will attain the first resurrection, (first in justification not time along with such immortality) but for others such justification would not take place until after the 1000 years are ended. Gods plan for man and this need to test them did not change just because Adam failed his trial period. Matching such reality with the past was not much of a stretch. But if we do not understand this past or grasp that this same plan will be fulfilled with us and others then how are we to understand what is yet in store for us in the future? It is like getting an overall view of the context in which all scripture should be understood and why we must endure this life in this way.

    By grasping this we can know with certainty that no one will simply live on into the promised kingdom without being resurrected or changed. No one can bypass the Christ (as the Watchtower really teaches) and attain everlasting life based upon Adam and the provisions made for him, as his tree of life gone and in Adam all die. There are some things that I do not know for sure. But the fact that Adam was not immortal and would not have lived on and on based upon the life forces within him without further intervention is not one of them.

    Joseph

  • Ginosko
    Ginosko

    Hi No One,

    The word "us" also trouble when I got baptized as JW.

    Thw WT told us the the "tree of knowledge" means something like "... the right of God to decided what is god and what is evil for all creation", but also that Jehowah was speaking with his son in this verse, so: Does Jesus has the rigth as his Father to decided what is good and what evil for the creation ?

    More that twenty years ago the WT said that Jesus has enough experience to decided in a relative way what is good and what is bad for himself.

    I really agree with you that this is a trouble word.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Malik- If the tree was only somekind of symbol than why are these type of trees again mentioned in revelation 22:2 ? your hypothesis holds no water .

    Heathen,

    On the contrary. This support what I just said. The trees in the Revelation are symbolic not real and this supports the symbolic application of the tree in the original Garden.

    Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. {out of the book: or, from the tree of life}

    A real tree is not under discussion here. And in the trees of revelation it is the leaves not the fruit that cures.

    Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Notice that just the nations need healing. The holy ones are already cured or saved. In all this you have no comparison and it is your hypothesis that holds no water.

    Joseph

  • donkey
    donkey

    Talking snakes are cool

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    donkey,

    Which means?

    Joseph'

  • ballistic
    ballistic

    Perhaps aliens thought there was two things they could give us as animals. Knowledge and Everlasting Life. Except when we got knowledge (by eating from the tree of knowledge) we decided we could do the rest on our own.

  • ballistic
    ballistic

    not working - can't see this thread

    thats better when my browser will not refresh on a page or show me one I've posted to, I post again. Posting limit gets wasted but at least it works.

    Edited by - ballistic on 30 December 2002 18:51:56

  • Mr Bean
    Mr Bean

    One more point in Adam case.

    Serpent was third person Adam was talking since his creation. First was God, second was Eve. Maybe from now he heard only Eve! ;-P

    Hes never heard a lie, deception and was never an object of manipulation. Of course if Eve was a nice girl!

    The Serpent evidently misleads Adam. Adam is fooled and sentenced by God to die with Eve and all of us.

    I dont think is fair at all! It sounds like fairy tale to me.

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