Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

gumby

The hebrews/jews, didn't believe that way....and vaugely if at all. But....when Christianity came along and borrowed the pagans ideas of life after death.......then it was night and day that there was life after death to immortality. Yes when the NT came along.....God became much nicer.......the Church needed that to gain converts anyways.
artful

Joseph: I appreciate and agree with much of your reasoning...however...
I don't really believe that the terms "heaven" and "God" can be used interchangeably. Just because Matthew (for a specific reason) used the expression "Kingdom of Heaven" to represent the "Kingdom of God", it does not follow that ANY use of the word heaven or heavenly by other writers would be meant to refer to a Godly-state not a location or destination.
I agree with your reasoning that being born again of spirit does not necessarily indicate that we would become spirit creatures in the future. I do think that being born of spirit although not altering our nature as humans, does alter our perspective from material to spiritual. This idea of altering our perspective is one that both Jesus and Paul preached (as quoted in my original scriptures above).
Your comments regarding Jesus' sayings are what I expected....essentially that he didn't specifically say we go to heaven but rather that our hope comes from there. And that he didn't say we would be angels, but would share their characteristics. I would have to agree with your reasoning here, and that on their own these specific texts don't prove that we go to heaven.
Unfortunately, this is where you stopped your explanations. I would suggest that the scriptures in Revelation that refer to the 144K and great crowd being present in heaven (with God, Jesus and the angels), and the others that I cited pertaining to Paul are the scriptures that present more of a challenge to your ideas (see below):
2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven ,not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
- Paul says that a Christian's house comes from God (as you have indicated), but then in a separate statement, he points to its location in heaven.
Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
- Paul indicates that his prize is to be received in heaven with Jesus.
Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
- I know that you could say that heavenly Jerusalem refers only to Godly Jerusalem, except that it also refers to thousands of angels in assembly with them (angels who by your own admission live in heaven).
Joseph wrote:
"And what will we be doing there alone when our Lord promised to return here to rule?"
The scripture that you cite in Acts 1:11 does indicate that the Lord's return would be in the same manner as his ascension, but does it say that he would then remain on Earth and rule over his subjects from Earth? No! Jesus indicated at Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne" to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
- The location of the "Throne of Christ" and his co-rulers would then point us to the location of (if not all Christians) at least his 12 disciples:
Matthew 5:34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
Acts 7:49 " 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool."
Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
These scriptures all point to the location of his throne and therefore that of his co-rulers who "sit with him on his throne" to be in heaven. If then EVEN ONE Christian could enter into heaven, the theory that no human could do this (in spirit or human form) would seem be undermined.
Artful
JosephMalik

I don't really believe that the terms "heaven" and "God" can be used interchangeably.
Artful,

Joseph answers: Not always, but the fact that they are used that way requires proof on your part that is more specific than what you offer. Context determines what is meant and context is an elusive element not easily grasped. So just because words like Spirit or Heaven appear in texts which words have many applications means that you have no real proof for your view. In this regard root texts and teachings, the hope for mankind and mans redemption carry more weight than such words. The need for a sacrifice by a human Being permits a repurchase of Adams offspring and does not allow for such thinking. This is the root teaching of scripture and demonstrated by the resurrection and restoration to life of human beings only. The only seed planted here on earth that qualifies for life other than human life was the Word that was with God and our creator. Yet this Word after being raised by God raised his own human body as prophesied and retained His humanity which was an immortal human body at that time. The only human being in fact to gain such immortality since Adam did not. If life was intended for us in the kingdom and if we are to have a body like His then this immortal human body shown to the Faith is it, not some non-human nature man never possessed and could never gain on his own. This is what was intended for us even as the Jews believed. Martha in fact described such a human resurrection and the hope of the Jews at the last day and not a non-human change in nature.
Artful said: I agree with your reasoning that being born again of spirit does not necessarily indicate that we would become spirit creatures in the future. I do think that being born of spirit although not altering our nature as humans, does alter our perspective from material to spiritual. This idea of altering our perspective is one that both Jesus and Paul preached (as quoted in my original scriptures above).
Joseph answers: Here again words like material and spiritual perspective are misleading. The spiritual perspective of the Jews in our Lords day was the Law and scripture even as Redemption, justification and resurrection is the spiritual perspective we support under the New Covenant. Our nature or a change to a non-human nature is not a factor in such texts.
Artful said: Unfortunately, this is where you stopped your explanations. I would suggest that the scriptures in Revelation that refer to the 144K and great crowd being present in heaven (with God, Jesus and the angels), and the others that I cited pertaining to Paul are the scriptures that present more of a challenge to your ideas (see below):
Joseph answers: Visions and signs are of no value in a discussion where doctrine on this matter has already been established for thousands of years. Such visions do not alter such facts but simply illustrate them for us. They are not any more literal than the trees growing in this heaven or the city itself are literal.
Artful said: 2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven ,not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
- Paul says that a Christian's house comes from God (as you have indicated), but then in a separate statement, he points to its location in heaven.
Joseph answers: The house under discussion in this text is the human body. This body of flesh, mortal, corruptible will be replaced with an immortal human body by Christ. One just like His. We have this assurance confirmed by the resurrection of our Lords human body to life once again. This is a prophecy pointing to where Christ was at that time Paul wrote sitting at Gods right hand not where Christ will be when it is fulfilled. It does not say that our nature will be altered does it? No but simply that our new house will be God given, authorize by Him by virtue of the sacrifice that was offered which now permits it. It will not be the product of Adam. It will be the product of Christ, something quite different not made with hands in that it will include the immortality that Christ gained for us.
Artful said: The scripture that you cite in Acts 1:11 does indicate that the Lord's return would be in the same manner as his ascension, but does it say that he would then remain on Earth and rule over his subjects from Earth? No! Jesus indicated at Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne" to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
Joseph answers: Literal discussions by our Lord are proof and if you have such proof please offer it. Even after His resurrection and spending forty days teaching His disciples about the Kingdom of God they NEVER got the idea that it would be somewhere else did they?
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: . . . 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

No, the only thing that they did not grasp was the fact that it would be well into the future. Our Lord did not correct their view of an earthly kingdom, only the time the day and hour in which it would take place. So no one will go to a place called heaven to be transformed into a non-human creature. This is literal information not symbolic views of this kingdom. The new creation that will inhabit it is immortal but human. This is what Adam lost for us when he failed to eat from the tree of life and this is what our Lord regained for us at His transfiguration. This is what was promised to mankinds seed and this is the only way anyone can become part of this kingdom. There is no entry into it other than being resurrected or changed (transfigured) and this goes for everyone that gains such entry be they believers or not.
Of course Christ will remain here on earth. He will sit on Davids throne an earthly throne and eat the Passover once again with His disciples. Literal information is not altered by symbolic texts and using them proves nothing. This is what our Lord taught His disciples about this kingdom.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Fathers kingdom.
This was also the hope of the Jews to which Martha and our Lords disciples so aptly testified.
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 24 December 2002 8:21:58
artful

Joseph:
You have some interesting ideas. However, since what you are suggesting is very new to me I would like to take the time to properly address some of your reasoning that I find curious. Unfortunately, since today is Christmas Eve, I will be spending time with my family for the next two or three days. When I return, I will take some time to post a proper reply to your comments.
Cheers, and Merry Christmas!
Artful
artful

Joseph:
Just to clarify what your are saying, I would like to sum up my understanding of your point of view by paraphrasing your following two statements:
"Joseph answers: Visions and signs are of no value in a discussion where doctrine on this matter has already been established for thousands of years. Such visions do not alter such facts but simply illustrate them for us. They are not any more literal than the trees growing in this heaven or the city itself are literal." and
"Joseph answers: Literal discussions by our Lord are proof and if you have such proof please offer it."
Your contention seems to be that any mention of human ascension to heaven (even by Jesus - as quoted by John in Revelation, or Paul) outside of the 4 gospels is not a "literal discussion by our Lord" and is therefore not acceptable as scriptural proof of our possible ascension to heaven? Is this as an accurate representation of your belief?
If so, I respect you view, however, I would have to take issue with your reasoning. First of all "literal discussions by our Lord" is really an oxymoron since almost all of Jesus words are spoken in parable. That being the case, anything attributed to him could be taken by you to be a "representation" of something and not literal. For instance, I would use Jesus' illustration of Lazarus and the Rich Man as proof that Jesus' taught that some would ascend to heaven. However, you could refute it by simply saying that this is merely an illustration. I would then say that Jesus parables always used things that the crowds could relate to and understand. Jesus would certainly not have "made up" an illustration that he knew to be "completely false", or "without any basis in reality". To do so, would of course have confused the crowd and put into question his integrity. My contention is that Jesus very use of this illustration suggests that the idea of Abraham being in heaven had some basis in reality.
The writings of Paul and others in the NT (as originally quoted above), point to a "heavenly" reward, and I don't believe that these can ALL be dismissed with the "heaven = God" idea. When viewed in context, they do seem to indicate that Paul believed that he and his fellow Christians pressed toward the goal of "heavenly" citizenship. Also, the issue of sitting down with Christ on his throne (which according to scripture is in heaven - see above) seems to support this idea of "being" in a heavenly place. I would think that to ignore these texts, or to pass them all off as simply "visions and signs" is really not giving all the scriptures their due consideration.
Your idea that these scriptures are of "no value in a discussion where doctrine on this matter has already been established for thousands of years" worries me because it seems to suggest two things:
1. The beliefs expressed by the NT writers which are outside of statements directly attributed to Jesus could be discarded as accessory, and not necessarily accurate or literal.
2. The Jewish doctrine of heaven, earth and the Kingdom of God as understood by the OT writers (disciples, Martha, etc.) is the same as that of the NT writers. Or, where the Jewish doctrine is not the same as the NT writers (as indicated by the scriptures I quoted), the Jewish understanding takes precedence over the beliefs of the writers of the NT because of the length of it's existence.
Artful
Edited by - artful on 1 January 2003 14:23:30
JosephMalik

Your contention seems to be that any mention of human ascension to heaven (even by Jesus - as quoted by John in Revelation, or Paul) outside of the 4 gospels is not a "literal discussion by our Lord" and is therefore not acceptable as scriptural proof of our possible ascension to heaven? Is this as an accurate representation of your belief?
Artful,
No.
Artful said: For instance, I would use Jesus' illustration of Lazarus and the Rich Man as proof that Jesus' taught that some would ascend to heaven. However, you could refute it by simply saying that this is merely an illustration.
Yes I would say that.
Artful said: My contention is that Jesus very use of this illustration suggests that the idea of Abraham being in heaven had some basis in reality.
Then I would say that your idea was not true and has no scriptural support. This is because we know for a certainty that Abraham is not there: 1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
artful said: The writings of Paul and others in the NT (as originally quoted above), point to a "heavenly" reward, and I don't believe that these can ALL be dismissed with the "heaven = God" idea.
Sure they can. When Paul spoke to Jews specifically he used the word heaven for Godly as this was less offensive to them. But Paul also used the term kingdom of God when addressing Gentiles. Matthew did the same thing using Jewish terms many times as his gospel was directed to them. But even so, the verses using such words do not teach that we actually go there. Just using the word heaven does not mean we actually go to such a place does it. Since this is a basic teaching of the faith we should be able to provide real proof. Pick your verse, make your point and we can go on from there.
Joseph
artful

Joseph: you stated "No" that is not your belief....could you please revise my explanation so I can understand where I have gone wrong with my statement of your belief.
____________
Joseph wrote: "Then I would say that your idea was not true and has no scriptural support. This is because we know for a certainty that Abraham is not there".
I'm sorry I didn't clarify; my suggestion was not that Abraham IS in heaven but rather that Jesus very use of this illustration suggests that the idea of Abraham being in heaven had some basis in reality to Jesus - at some point in time.
__________
As for picking my verse and making my point - since I have already done that with several scriptures above, I will repost below the scriptures which were not commented on:
Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
- Paul indicates that his prize is to be received in heaven with Jesus.
Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
- I know that you could say that heavenly Jerusalem refers only to Godly Jerusalem, except that it also refers to thousands of angels in assembly with them (angels who by your own admission live in heaven).
Jesus indicated at Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne" to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
- The location of the "Throne of Christ" and his co-rulers would then point us to the location of (if not all Christians) at least his 12 disciples:,
Matthew 5:34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
Acts 7:49 " 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool."
Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Artful
JosephMalik

Joseph wrote: "Then I would say that your idea was not true and has no scriptural support. This is because we know for a certainty that Abraham is not there".
Artful said: I'm sorry I didn't clarify; my suggestion was not that Abraham IS in heaven but rather that Jesus very use of this illustration suggests that the idea of Abraham being in heaven had some basis in reality to Jesus - at some point in time.
Artful,
Once again your statement is not true. You must show how the illustration suggests that idea and not just say it. Will you do that please? And exactly where does the illustration suggest a past and/or future fulfillment?
Artful said: Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
- Paul indicates that his prize is to be received in heaven with Jesus.
Again like all the rest of the verses you supplied you offer no proof. The paradise, kingdom, Israel of God or New Jerusalem was not here when Paul wrote this. He could only appeal to Jesus who was sitting at Gods right hand in his day. We know that. Where is the proof that this paradise will not be here on earth when Christ returns to rule in this kingdom? I showed you where it would be and why? Can you prove differently?
Artful said: Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
- I know that you could say that heavenly Jerusalem refers only to Godly Jerusalem, except that it also refers to thousands of angels in assembly with them (angels who by your own admission live in heaven).
Not these angels. The word angels (also translated messengers) does not of itself identify the type of or Nature of the Being under discussion. Context does that and in this verse they are Jews, messengers (angels same word) of the covenant awaiting a resurrection from the dead but perceived as existing (sleeping in death). Hebrews chapter 1 speaks of them as well. Besides this symbolic city of the living God will come down here to earth as the Revelation states. So you have no proof here for some other location for this paradise. Just read the next verse if you need proof. It identifies and breaks down these angels (human messengers now dead) like this:
:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, {written: or, enrolled}
This was after all the hope of the Jews and the purpose of the Law covenant, that they may live again in this kingdom through a process Martha called resurrection that would take place on the last day (the day when this paradise will come into existence).
Artful said: Jesus indicated at Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne" to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
- The location of the "Throne of Christ" and his co-rulers would then point us to the location of (if not all Christians) at least his 12 disciples:,
Sit with me on my throne is the throne of David that has always been here on earth. This is the location of the throne of Christ at that time. Buy you try to relocate it by saying:
Matthew 5:34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;
This is discussing Gods throne not Davids throne or the Throne of our Lord. What kind of proof is this? Do you think that only one throne exists in scripture? And you still have not shown that Gods throne will remain somewhere else at the time of this Paradise under discussion.
Artful said: Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
This verse proves that the Son of Man comes here to live. The angels that will be with him will also be here for they are the holy ones he will raise for the purpose of administering this kingdom. The expression heavenly glory is not a place. It is a condition expressing the Godly rule that will result with the coming of Christ. This all proves what I have been saying all along.
Artful said: Acts 7:49 " 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool."
So? We are discussing the location of Paradise not the location of the throne of God. Where is your proof. Explain how this changes anything in this discussion please?
Artful said: Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
So? Where was Jesus when John wrote this? With His Father on his throne. Great that much is true. And where will the throne of Jesus be when Paradise is restored? The same place it was when John wrote this? No! For the scriptures teach:
:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Jesus will relocate His throne here to earth where it will also be called the throne of David. The earth is where this promised Paradise will be as stated many times in this discussion.

Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 4 January 2003 9:51:56
artful

Joseph wrote:
You must show how the illustration suggests that idea and not just say it. Will you do that please?
Joseph, I'm sure you would concur that in all of Jesus' other illustrations he used situations and examples that his audience could relate to and had some "basis in reality". He never discussed things that were too abstract or without any earthly or heavenly counterpart. My point is that since his teaching method is consistent in all of his other illustrations there would be no reason to think that he would deviate from this method with his parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. This illustration if taken at "face value" is saying that Abraham is in heaven. So to "suggest" that this might have some basis in reality is really self-evident. I don't understand why you say I need to "show how the illustration suggests" that Abraham might have some place in heaven when the illustration itself says it!!?
________
Joseph wrote:
"The paradise, kingdom, Israel of God or New Jerusalem was not here when Paul wrote this. He could only appeal to Jesus who was sitting at Gods right hand in his day. We know that."
My point was not that Paul said the kingdom was here at that time, but that in Philippians 3:14 Paul indicates that his prize is to be received in heaven with Jesus (whenever it is that he is taken to be with Jesus).
_________
I agree with you comment on Hebrews, I was wrong to apply it that way.
_________
Joseph wrote: "The angels that will be with him will also be here for they are the holy ones he will raise for the purpose of administering this kingdom."
You lost me here - however, I referenced your explanation of this on another thread.
__________
Joseph wrote:
"Sitwith me on my throne is the throne of David that has always been here on earth. This is the location of the throne of Christ at that time.
Jesus will relocate His throne here to earth where it will also be called the throne of David."
Since you seem to acknowledge that Jesus throne is currently in heaven, could you please show me from this scriptures where it says that "Jesus will relocate his throne" here to earth.
Since David's throne on earth was merely an inferior symbol of the throne of God in heaven, couldn't the comment that Jesus would sit down on the throne of David be symbolic of him sitting down on the throne of God.
Also, the "throne" and the judging referred to in Revelation all take place "before" the "New Jerusalem" descends to earth and are clearly referred to as being in heaven:
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Artful
JosephMalik

I don't understand why you say I need to "show how the illustration suggests" that Abraham might have some place in heaven when the illustration itself says it!!?
Artful,
Why do I say it? Because Jesus is the resurrection and the life and He was still alive. And Paul's comments to Timothy in 1 Timoth chapter 6 were already well covered. The burden of proof is still on you. Failure to grasp the meaning of an illustration does not a proof make.
Joseph

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

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