Ozzie-I totally respect you and your beliefs, but I have to say I have heard the contrary from many inside the borg. My best friend was physically abused by her JW dad, and when the elders were called to meet with her about "her behavior" she was told "If I had a daughter who acted like you, I'd beat them too!" I am not talking about spankings either, I am talking about beatings that landed her in the hospital.
Watchtower says "BEAT your CHILDREN!"
by UnDisfellowshipped 35 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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Simon
teenyuck
Yizuman is not the topic. No one has to share any more information than they want to. Please don't harrass other posters.
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Yizuman
Simon - teenyuck, Yizuman is not the topic. No one has to share any more information than they want to. Please don't harrass other posters.
Thank you Simon.
Edited by - Yizuman on 18 December 2002 16:4:51
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RandomTask
I think though that you have to consider how these attitudes, even though out of print, have prevailed through JW culture to this day. Much of the way the Witnesses come to believe what they do is through the spoken word and not just in print. I'm sure we all could come out with much, albeit anecdotal, evidence of how witness parents still abide by these words today because older witnesses have kept the attitudes alive through their comments at the meetings or through public talks or through private council given by elders. Once Ideas like these were released into the "wild", even way back in the 50's and 60's they have germinated and spread through the cult like weeds.
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amac
child having her buttocks being severally beaten outside at the side of the KH building in plain view of me across the street from the church parking lot. The sight of this sickened me. I wanted to beat the crap out of him, but I knew I'll end up in jail and I am just one witness to this brutal act. It would be his word against mine. Plus she was wearing thick diapers, so her buttocks would only be redden and I doubt it would have left any bruises.
So if the child was wearing thick diapers and would have only had a red bottom as opposed to bruises then it sounds to me more like spanking rather than beating. Granted that spanking has become semi-controversial, the use of it should be left up to the parents rather than to self appointed social police.
Conversely...
pain (via a red bottom) is the only language a child understands.
I completely disagree with this. Although I am not "anti-spanking" I do not spank my children who are 4 and 5 and they are very well behaved. There are plenty of different types of postivie disciplines that children understand. Spanking is just the easiest discipline with the quickest result (but lacks long term results) and that is why so many parents resort to it.
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amac
I think though that you have to consider how these attitudes, even though out of print, have prevailed through JW culture to this day.
I forgot to comment on the main topic of the thread....these attitudes are HARDLY exclusive to JW's. I think you can effectively replace JW with U.S. and it would be just as accurate.
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RandomTask
these attitudes are HARDLY exclusive to JW's. I think you can effectively replace JW with U.S. and it would be just as accurate.
True, but I have never seen physical discipline so STRESSED outside of the organization. In fact, outside of the organization, attitudes are quite different and if people agree with spanking then they are not very outspoken about it. However, in the organization, those who do not spank are sometimes looked down upon and those who think you should spank are very outspoken. The fact that many fundamental religions believe the same as the witnesses do in this matter only serves to catagorize the witness group with other harsh and rigid, rules based religions.
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Yizuman
Sorry Yiz, but that's paranoia. Times and attitudes change, of course, but not for the reason you give.
I know, I was there.
Cheers, Ozzie
On the contrary Ozzie, I've seen it firsthand in 1987.
I know of Ex-JWs that I have spoken to in the ex-jw support groups told me stories about the spankings and beatings that happens in their KHs.
I had a friend who visited the KH near his home in Indianapolis where he once lived and have seen a kid with his face all black and blue. Naturally he reported it because there was absolute evidence there. The cops came in during the next meeting and found the young boy as exactly as described. The parents were arrested on the spot and the child taken to protective custody. Nobody likes to break up a family, but in this case, it had to be done.
In my case, I knew the child would not have any bruises from the spanking she had received. It would only redden her buttocks and the father could explain it off with something. There just wasn't enough evidence on my side of the situation other than if I had a camera on hand at the time, preferably a camcorder since it can show exactly how hard the father was swatting the child's buttocks covered with a very thick pair of diapers. So my hands was tied with lack of evidence. It's my word against his.
As for someone suggesting that I should have taken action. I could have taken action, but it would have been all for nothing at the end. No jury in the world in this situation could convict the father for the spanking he gave to his baby daughter. I on the other hand would probably have ended up in jail if I had intervened. I despise seeing defenseless children being severely beaten for any reason.
I'm not 100% against spanking, here's my take on this subject...ONE SWAT ON THE BACKSIDE IS ENOUGH! No more!
My mother swats my backside ONCE when I am caught in the act of the wrong and she hugs me afterwards even when I get upset and angry at my mother for swatting me and make a huge fuss about it.
Unfortunantly, spanking is not a 100% cure all for any kind of bad behavior. Kids who grow up to become adults can still be jerks regardless of the upbringing. I know, I was there, but I'm not a jerk anymore. I grew up some more and is wiser. I will not forget the love my mother gave me contrary of how I treated her as a teenager.
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Yizuman
So if the child was wearing thick diapers and would have only had a red bottom as opposed to bruises then it sounds to me more like spanking rather than beating. Granted that spanking has become semi-controversial, the use of it should be left up to the parents rather than to self appointed social police.
Yes, the same was said in Indiana back in 1987. But today, there's more stricter laws on the subject. This subject on spanking is still up on the debate floor. Some Indiana School Principles have gotten fired for paddling school kids when they were bad and some parents sued the Principle for it as well. Some even got fired just for scolding the kids and they ran to their mamas complaining what the Principle said to them. Teachers included.
Some people don't believe in spanking or scolding their children because they believe it destroys their self esteem. I've met kids who have never been spanked or scolded for any kind of wrong doing, from my observation and I am sorry to have to say this but, those unspanked/unscolded kids are major brats. I cannot understand how a parent can put up with kids with a wild and nasty attitude out in the open and in public. It's embarrassing and quite annoying as well.
Some folks can say, "Kids will be Kids"....that may be true in some degree, but certainly I was not like that as a 4-5-6-7-8 or even a 10 year old. My mother would not put up with that at all. She knew better than to allow me to carry on with that kind of behavior.
Edited by - Yizuman on 18 December 2002 16:50:29
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Valis
If we have a look at the current drivel the WTBTS has to offer you won't find much but vague references to disciplining children..Could it be they finally stayed out of family business for once?
Maintaining Order and Respect
Teaching children a sense of order and respect is one of the great challenges that parents face. In today's permissive world, many wonder if it is even right to restrict their children at all. The Bible answers: "The rod and reproof are what give wisdom; but a boy let on the loose will be causing his mother shame." (Proverbs 29:15) Some shy away from the word "rod," thinking that it implies some kind of child abuse. But it does not. The Hebrew word for "rod" referred to a staff, such as the one a shepherd used to guidenot assaulthis sheep. * So the rod stands for discipline.
In the Bible, to discipline primarily means to teach. That is why the book of Proverbs says some four times, 'listen to discipline.' (Proverbs 1:8; 4:1; 8:33; 19:27) Children need to learn that doing what is right brings a reward and that doing what is wrong brings bad consequences. Punishment may help to impress negative lessons, just as rewardssuch as commendationmay reinforce positive ones. (Compare Deuteronomy 11:26-28.) Parents do well to imitate God's example when it comes to punishment, for he told his people that he would chastise them "to the proper degree." (Jeremiah 46:28) Some children need little more than a few stern words to bring them into line. Others need firmer measures. But chastisement "to the proper degree" would never include anything that might do a child real harm emotionally or physically.
Balanced discipline should include teaching children about boundaries and limits. Many of these are clearly defined in God's Word. The Bible teaches respect for the boundaries around personal property. (Deuteronomy 19:14) It sets up physical boundaries, making it wrong to love violence or deliberately harm another. (Psalm 11:5; Matthew 7:12) It establishes sexual boundaries, condemning incest. (Leviticus 18:6-18) It even acknowledges personal and emotional boundaries, forbidding us to call someone vile names or use other forms of verbal abuse. (Matthew 5:22) Teaching children about these limits and boundariesboth by word and by exampleis essential to creating a healthy family environment.
http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/1997/8/8/article_03.htm
Sincerely,
District Overbeer