by fulltimestudent 42 Replies latest jw friends
I've said that before but you keep acting as if those words have never been written here on this thread by me.
Your words, are just your words. I quoted the scriptures, which is the basis for Jewish belief, to prove that original sin was clearly taught by the ancient Jewish prophets, which you claimed otherwise. Instead of looking at the scriptures, you ignored them and quoted yourself as the final authority for what all Jews believe.
Believe whatever you want, you are perfectly free to do so.
I love ham/bacon/pork chops.
I'd love to try wild boar.
Perry,
You are doing it again.
I've stated clearly that Jews have never understood those texts as Christains do. These are not my own opinions, you can check for yourself with Jewish sites in the Internet or look it up in Jewish study materials.
Christians wrote the New Testament, correct? Whose interpretation of the NT would be more accurate, that of Muslims or that of Christians of their own Scriptures? Who can interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church better, Mormons or Catholics? And can't Jews have a better understanding of their own Scriptures and theology than others?
I pray in Hebrew, speak Hebrew, read Hebrew all through the day. I am a Jew, and our culture and theology are well known. They are not what you say they are. Those Scriptures don't mean what Gentile Christians say they do, at least not to us. All due respect, but your beliefs are based on interpretations that don't come from Jews.
You are not free When you say Jews don't know their own Scriptures that they composed and reflects their unique culture and unique theology; that is a sign that you are not free at all but bound to the same blindness loved by people who are still in the Watchtower. Ignorance is not freedom.
Nice post..
But Perry may not get the sarcasm ;)
He still hasn't responded to my post regarding the ancient predators that existed millions of years ago. That was not addressed in the link he posted.
Or why God remembering the animals in the ark was used as an indication that he cares about animals. (After the premeditated mass murder known as the Flood).
Oh, and this part he missed as well..
Where is the evidence for this 'basic original blueprint of peace, harmony and generalized herbivory'?
In the Bible?
You are doing it again.
Of course I am promoting the Scriptures as the authority as opposed to opinion.
I've stated clearly that Jews have never understood those texts as Christains do.
The Jews who wrote the scriptures that I posted earlier believed what they wrote. They were Jews. What they wrote was pretty clearly in support of ancestral sin. Believing what they wrote is up to each person.
These are not my own opinions, you can check for yourself with Jewish sites in the Internet or look it up in Jewish study materials.
You have found Jews that agree with your opinion. I personally know Jews who disagree with you. Neither one of these groups is the authority on Judaism. The scriptures are the final authority.
Christians wrote the New Testament, correct? Whose interpretation of the NT would be more accurate, that of Muslims or that of Christians of their own Scriptures? Who can interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church better, Mormons or Catholics? And can't Jews have a better understanding of their own Scriptures and theology than others?
But we are not discussing the NT and neither have I quoted from it. We are discussing the OT. I can read the OT texts for myself as anyone can. I suggest you read for yourself and stop listening to others who tell your their interpretation of what you are reading. You know what obsessiveness that it took to copy those scriptures accurately for millennia...it was a lot of trouble and effort. You should read it for yourself and ask God to speak to you through them.
I pray in Hebrew, speak Hebrew, read Hebrew all through the day. I am a Jew, and our culture and theology are well known. They are not what you say they are. Those Scriptures don't mean what Gentile Christians say they do, at least not to us.
With all due respect, you mention a lot of different influences when discussing scripture, Jews, culture, theology, Christians, etc. What do you think God meant when he wrote those passages I posted? Don't you think God meant what he plainly said?
All due respect, but your beliefs are based on interpretations that don't come from Jews.
I disagree. The passages I provided seem clear enough. I think God means what he says, especially if he says the same thing several times through different prophets, in slightly different ways.
You are not free When you say Jews don't know their own Scriptures that they composed and reflects their unique culture and unique theology;
You seem to be impressed with Jewishness, culture and theology. What about the author of the scriptures? Don't each of us have a responsibility to read and hear from God in good faith, trusting in his words as the ultimate authority? Wouldn't you want your children to do the same? And don't you think those Jewish authors count as Jews too?
that is a sign that you are not free at all but bound to the same blindness loved by people who are still in the Watchtower. Ignorance is not freedom.
To the contrary, I read for myself now. I don't allow others to interpret what I am reading.
Consider:
Ps. 199: 105 - Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Ps. 119: 11 - Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Joshua 1: 8 - This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.
Nowhere in these scriptures am I told to check with my culture or religious scholars to interpret for me what God has said. God told Eve something once, and someone reinterpreted it for her. It didn't work out well for her. I didn't work out too well for me when I used to do that as a JW.
Isaiah 1: 2 & 3
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
for the Lord has spoken:
“Children have I reared and brought up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,
and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”
God does not want people to desire their culture's ideas about God or theology or scholars' interpretations of him. He wants people to actually desire him, as a person. He doesn't want people to make some kind of a religion out of the special relationship he is offering, he wants people to enjoy the actual relationship itself. This is why his word must trump any interpretation contrary to the plain reading of scripture.
BTW, I really like Jews ...culture an all. Even if some don't agree with me.
Perry,
I'm Jewish, a Sephardic Jew of the tribe of Judah. My ancestors were Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, Jacob and Rachel and Leah.
My ancestors included many who were forced to accept Christianity or else torture or being expelled from Spain. Thus during the Spanish Inquisition many of my ancestors were persecuted by Christians, some murdered, and in 1492 we were sent out from our homes with the sealing of the Alhambra Decree.
Just a couple of months ago I received formal apologies from Christians and their official religious groups in Europe who either actively participated in the Holocaust or stood by and did nothing. During those 6 dark years 2 million direct relatives of mine were sent to the death camps in full view of people who follow your Christ. None of the Sephardic communities of Europe remained after all was said and done. My native Jewish tongue, Ladino, is now going extinct due to the horrors of the Holocaust and millions of Christians who remained silent witnesses to genocide.
I did not "find Jews" who agree with my beliefs. I was taught the traditions of my ancestors, and it is these I have spoken of here. Who are you to tell me to stop listening to my people? My culture and religion and Scriptures are inseparable. They are a holistic expression of what it means to be Jewish and what it means to be "the people of the Book."
Who are you, a descendent of pagans and heathens, to tell me that I am making up the traditions and theology I have inherited as a right from my people? Who are you, a Christian, who is dependent on the stock of Israel for all you call holy, to claim that I am merely inventing these things?
Maybe I am looking at things wrongly. perhaps it would be better if I joined your religion and became the same type of Christian you are so I can find another Jew to insult as you have insulted me in the same manner and with the same words you have. If this is what being Christian means, to state things about me that have no basis then no wonder your spiritual ancestors handed my people over to the ovens of Auschwitz.
My ancestors were Abraham
Then do as Abraham did - Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. Gen. 15:6
All who believe God are Abraham's' seed.
It cost me my whole family, culture, and all my friends to believe God. I never thought that I could do it. Alone, it was way beyond me. Tens years removed from that decision, I regret that I had only one beloved family and culture to give up in order to believe God.
Hi CF,
While I do believe that Christ was the fulfillment of the law and his teachings and Paul's exegesis on the OT (which I believe was inspired) formed the basis for a revelatory new understanding of God, I agree that what many Christians think Jews believed (and still do) is not correct and we shouldn't presume. In fact, I think the best way to get back to first century Christianity is to start with a first century Jewish mindset and understanding and proceed from there. Too much Platonism and other heathen ideas have been inserted into the scriptures and the perceived thinking of first century Christians.
I am curious though, what do you think the purpose of the Eden story was with the judgements issued? It seems that death was not an option before the disobedience and now we all die, regardless of whether or not we inherit an original sin or not. We somehow inherit death, as it seems to indicate, at least on the surface. I am sincerely interested in your thoughts, so please do not let any presumptuous people get you too upset. I welcome other thoughts and especially those of learned Jews.
