Simon said,(referring to Jewish discussion)

by cookie 18 Replies latest jw friends

  • cookie
    cookie

    In another thread simon said:

    ".....but there is a correct and rational way to discuss and debate this "

    So can we please discuss this.

    Collectively, there is a lot of insight on this board,and aside from the negativity that was generated,this topic had many facets that were of great interest.

    So if " there is a correct and rational way to discuss and debate this" I would like to see it done.

    Did anyone else on this board form any questions or learn something from the whole debate?

    I have always been interested in the origin and progression of Abraham's seed; and I have wondered whether he and and his offspring symbolised something more than what we all learned about it.

    Cookie

  • Francois
    Francois

    I don't think Abraham nor his seed symbolized a thing except Abraham's kingly ambitions.

    Didn't learn anything from the "discussions" that have taken place on this board over the last few weeks. I've heard all that garbage before. What is there to learn, after all that hasn't been on television a million times; that hasn't been covered in numberless books; that wasn't covered in history courses of various kinds in various places?

    I really think that the only time this topic comes up any more is when some nut case wants to bring it up so as to deny it ever happened which in my opinion is an affront to an entire race of people, not to mention to the intelligence of everyone within hearing range.

    I'm happy and relieved it's over. And I hope jjrizo is resting comfortably somewhere and can get off the thorazine sometime soon.

  • Realist
    Realist

    abraham never existed. he was made up about 800bc.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Realist,

    You can NOT prove a negative. While it may be possible to say "Yes, Abraham existed" given certain proofs, lack of proofs do not prove he did NOT exist. Abraham may or may not be a composite of several of the early nomad ancestors of the various tribes that eventually entermarried and became the Hebrews. Actually, nothing of the Abraham stories would lead one to believe the stories were false or that he wasn't a real person, only that the history was woven around him.

  • Francois
    Francois

    Y-

    As in absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?

  • Mary
    Mary

    "....absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?..."

    Absolutely not! How many millions of people throughout history have died with no written record of that person, most notably before such records were kept? How about some slave in Egypt 4,000 years ago? He was probably just buried and history forgot him. No record at all that he even existed, but that doesn't mean he didn't.

  • JH
    JH

    If you believe in the bible, he existed

    If you believe in Jesus, and Jesus talked about him, he existed

    If you don' believe in the bible, maybe he existed

    If you don't believe in Jesus, you don't believe in the bible, so maybe he existed anyways.

  • Pleasuredome
    Pleasuredome

    abraham's seed is the Christ Jesus. through his seed the the nations would bless him.

  • cookie
    cookie

    Realist:

    A few years a go I read a book called. The Original Torah.(written by Jewish scholars[I believe]) It was a fairly small book that I obtained from a yeshivah. And it was one of the first publications to open my mind to the possibility that what was written in the Bible might not have been meant to be literally interpreted. And was certainly not written for outsiders.

    It suggested that the "stories'' would have been (by design) interpreted differently to outsiders than to those whom it was meant to instruct. They used some word (memory fails me at the moment) hyponoai or hypokonaia (something like that). Which meant that there was a hidden meaning to the stories that only they would understand. I assumed what they meant by that to be similar to the way Homer is interpreted. On the surface there might be a compelling story, but if you go a little deeper (ie.motives etc.)there's much more to it.

    It was also in that book where I first heard of the word Philology. Subsequently, a history professor had explained to our class,that Philology has been of great assistance to historians;and he used the common expression that we often hear today, " No way, Jose!" to prove his point.

    He said if we came across some written form that was assumed to be 200 years old , but we found "No way, Jose!" written upon the document, we could conclude that the document written in the 20th century rather than the 18th.

    The book,The Original Torah,brought out that the first five books of the Bible could not possibly have been written in the time frame attributed to Moses ,and they used Philology to prove that point. I believe it was in that book where I had first heard of the Hebrew writings having likely been composed in Babylon around 800BC.

    I felt sooooo dumb, for having been so gulible in the past.

    How could I have taken everything so literally and without question from the WT? I have been away from the Bible for a long time. Couldn't deal with it. But I am ready to look at it in a literary way to see if there is not more to it than a religion presents.

    My interest in Abraham is not to dispute whether he lived or not, Francois. My interest is in what the writers of the Abrahamic story wanted to convey.

    Cookie

  • Francois
    Francois

    MARY,

    YOU COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD MY POINT. READ IT AGAIN CAREFULLY AND THINK ABOUT IT CAREFULLY. AND STOP SCREAMING AT ME. IT'S NOT POLITE, IS IT?

    FRANK

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