not my enemy

by teejay 53 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  pettygrudger

  I have absolutely adored reading all sentiments expressed on this thread - both sides strike chords deep in my heart.

  Is the WBTS the enemy - yes for some it's the symbol of alot of the pain & suffering they continue to have to this day because of the policies of this organization. Is it any 1 particular persons' fault - especially those we had come to know and love - well no. They are in no different state of mind than were most of us before we left. Its' summed up in a Don Henley song for me:

  Heart Of The Matter
  Don Henley

  I got the call today, I didn't wanna hear
  But I knew that it would come
  An old, true friend of ours was talkin' on the phone
  She said you found someone
  And I thought of all the bad luck, and the struggles we went through
  And how I lost me and you lost you
  What are those voices outside love's open door
  Make us throw off our contentment and beg for something more?
  
  I'm learning to live without you now
  But I miss you sometimes
  The more I know, the less I understand
  All the things I thought I knew, I'm learning again
  I've been tryin' to get down to the heart of the matter
  But my will gets weak and my thoughts seem to scatter
  But I think it's about forgiveness
  Forgiveness
  Even if, even if you don't love me anymore
  
  These times are so uncertain
  There's a yearning undefined
  ...people filled with rage
  We all need a little tenderness
  How can love survive in such a graceless age?
  The trust and self-assurance that lead to happiness
  They're the very things we kill, I guess
  Pride and competition
  Cannot fill these empty arms
  And the work I put between us doesn't keep me warm
  
  I'm learning to live without you now
  But I miss you, baby
  The more I know, the less I understand
  All the things I thought I'd figured out
  I have to learn again
  I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matter
  But everything changes and my friends seem to scatter
  But I think it's about forgiveness
  Forgiveness
  Even if, even if you don't love me anymore
  
  There are people in your life who've come and gone
  They let you down and hurt your pride
  Better put it all behind you; life goes on
  You keep carryin' that anger, it'll eat you up inside
  
  I've been tryin' to get down to the heart of the matter
  But my will gets weak and my thoughts seem to scatter
  But I think it's about forgiveness
  Forgiveness
  Even if, even if you don't love me anymore
  
  I've been tryin' to get down to the heart of the matter
  Because the flesh will get weak and the ashes will scatter
  So I'm thinkin' about forgiveness
  Forgiveness
  Even if, even if you don't love me anymore
• 

  outoftheorg

  Well I have been gone a couple of days, so I did not respond.

  As regards forgivness of others, Herk threw in a couple of scriptures regarding Christ and his crucifiction and his asking God to "forgive them for they know not what they do" to support his position. What is not mentioned is all the scriptures that tell us that repentance is required to get forgivness.That would be recognizing what one is doing is wrong and cease doing it.

  We do not know what was in Jesus mind when he asked God to forgive the ones used by others to kill him. It is interesting to note that the real instigators of his death, the Jewish religious leaders and Pontius Pilot the roman governor who caved in to the demands of the pharasies and the man Judas and others involved in his death were not included in his request to God for forgivness. So this scripture can not be used to support any overall requirement to forgive all those who mistreat us.

  Since not all of the bible books that speak of Jesus being crucified mention this forgiveness of these few people, it is not certain that he even did this.

  I had two friends that were and are elders. One of them, up to today is trying to break up my family relationship to my daughter and my grand children. He does this by telling my daughter that it is against Gods laws to even speak to me unless it is of business etc. He is no longer my friend, he is my enemy. Until he ceases this he will remain so.

  The other elder tells my daughter that I have a right to know, see, and associate with my grand children. While he is not my friend he is not my enemy and I have no reason to not forgive him since he does not try to hurt me or my family.

  Up to the day the wbts retracts its hateful conduct and actions they will remain my enemy.

  Note--I did not say Jehovahs witnesses since not all of them behave this way. I named the wbts as my enemy.

  Lark?

  Your statement that "when you left the borg you well knew that you would be mistreated. That knowing this in advance some how makes the mistreatment acceptable puzzels me.

  Is this what you are saying?

  Outoftheorg
• 

  herk

  Outoftheorg,

  Apparently you're hurting quite a bit right now. I shouldn't expect you to accept the explanation I gave above of what the dying Jesus said about forgiveness.

  For what it's worth, I'll comment on what seem to be questions you raised in your last post.

  I think we make a big mistake if we attempt to tone down anything Jesus said. It's true that some manuscripts omit his words about forgiveness at Luke 23:34. But other reliable manuscripts do contain them.

  "Forgive them" means exactly that. It means "Blot out their transgression completely. Cause them eventually to repent, so that they can be pardoned fully." If that isn't what Jesus meant, then none of us should expect to be forgiven. The same grammatical construction appears in Luke 11:4: "Forgive us our sins."

  Jesus insisted that we forgive every debtor. (Mt 6:12, 14, 15; 18:21, 22; Mr 11:25; Lu 11:4) He also said we must love our enemies. Mt 5:44) It seems only reasonable that he meant it when he said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

  When Stephen was being stoned to death, he gave us the truest interpretation of what Jesus meant. He prayed exactly as Jesus did: "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" (Ac 7:60)

  It was true that the persecutors did not know what they were doing. In Jesus' situation, the soldiers certainly didn't know. Even the members of the Sanhedrin, though they must have known that what they were doing was wicked, did not comprehend the extent of that wickedness.

  The Father heard and answered Jesus' prayer. Part of the answer may well be the fact that Jerusalem's fall did not occur immediately. For a period of about 40 years the gospel of salvation was still being proclaimed to the Jews. Many actually responded and became Christians. On the day of Pentecost 3,000 were converted. (Ac 2:31, 42) A little later thousands more. (Ac 4:4) Even "a large number of priests became obedient to the faith." (Ac 6:7) Not the people as a whole, but many families and individuals were converted.

  By asking God to forgive them, Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 53:12: "He himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors."

  I think we have to have a similar view of JWs and the WT Society itself. All the preaching Jesus did and all the wonderful works he performed had very little effect on those who hated and persecuted him. Still, he prayed for them, and eventually good came of it.

  Probably nothing we say or do will convince JWs they're in the wrong. But we can pray, just as Jesus did, even when they give us the hardest time, such as one elder is currently doing to you.

  There is a God. Jesus called him Father when he pleaded for forgiveness of his enemies. We need to be like Jesus and have that childlike trust and love. We're reminded of Job 13:15: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him."

  JWs haven't yet done to you and me what Jesus' enemies did to him, although they came mighty close. For example, if we were still in their organization and were dying for lack of a blood transfusion, they would be satisfied if we up and died. If we took a transfusion, they wouldn't speak to us perhaps for the rest of our lives.

  Their actions are based upon just plain stupidity, reminding us of the stupidity of those who killed Jesus. It's perfectly proper to view them as our personal enemies, yet we're still obligated to show them love and to pray for their repentance and forgiveness, according to the teaching and example of Jesus.

  Herk
• 

  teejay

  I definitely identify with my ex-JW comrades who have family that are still loyal JWs. As some of you may know, my oldest sister (and always my favorite sibling) was df'd in '71 when she was only 19.

  Except for the brief time in the late 70s/early 80s when the Society lessened its stringent restrictions on dealings with df'd family members, for the most part thereafter I loyally supported the JW's shunning policy and didn't have much to do with my sister. I say this only to say that I understand the pain that comes from losing family members. I understand it completely.

  Still, the loyal Witness must bear at least *some* of the blame for what they do. Making the Watchtower leadership totally responsible for the breach that exists between current and ex-JW family members makes no sense.

  I had doubts when I was a Dub but I made the choice to disregard them all. Who should I blame for that? Do I have ANY culpability at all for how I treated my sister all those years? I think I do. While I've forgiven myself for what I did (even as I hope that Big Sis has done the same - and our hour-long convo this afternoon may hint at) it does not remove the responsibility FROM ME for what I did.

  ========================================

  As regards forgivness of others, Herk threw in a couple of scriptures regarding Christ and his crucifiction and his asking God to "forgive them for they know not what they do" to support his position. What is not mentioned is all the scriptures that tell us that repentance is required to get forgivness.That would be recognizing what one is doing is wrong and cease doing it.

  We do not know what was in Jesus mind when he asked God to forgive the ones used by others to kill him. -- outoftheorg

  Out,

  I notice that you admitted that "we don't know who Jesus had in mind." After that, you went on to explain what he "certainly" meant and didn't mean. Funny.

  My bible says that he said, "forgive them." That's what he said. In your opinion, you seem to know who he meant and who he didn't mean by "them."

  .

  As far as the two elders you spoke of, I understand and agree. If someone was needlessly and willfully putting ideas into the heads of my JW family members, I would consider them an enemy, too. I have known several elder/policemen like the one you mention.

  A deluded family member is bad enough. Seeing them subjected to the overtures of a domineering elder is clearly worse. In your case, knowing what I know now, I would threaten and follow up on legal intervention toward that asshole PERSONALLY. If I had my way, he would lose his home, his job, his family. He -- personally -- would pay the price for his non-gb-approved actions toward me and my family. I assure you that if I had my way, his beloved governing body would leave him twisting in the wind... all by his dumbass self. And my JW family members and I would be happily walking down the road, arm in arm, skipping in the summer breeze.