by Focus 51 Replies latest jw friends
jjrizo, one has to wonder what you are here for?
Do you have a point to make with respect to Focus' article? Or are you just here to cause trouble?
Focus certainly isn't shy about saying that he is here to cause trouble for the Watchtower. Do you have a problem with that? If he also causes trouble for you, due to your inablility to reason, this is not his fault.
Focus,
You asked what I thought of the issue. I agree with you that the number of Jws murdered by the Nazis can't compare with the Jews, homosexuals, Romany people, and even Catholics, who experienced similar fates. W.T. publications have vacilated on the number, sometimes inflating the figures (between 1,000 and 4,000), but a 1974 W.T. seems to be the most balanced. It states that 635 died in prison (doesn't state how, but I presume malnutrition and disease) and that 203 were actually executed. So that is a total of 838. That being said, any number is to be deplored.
Also, I can't understand how some people try to deny or minimize the Holocaust.
:This guy Focus has all the marks of one that uses cult like tactics.
No he doesn't. Give one example of a cult-like tactic used by focus.
:I've dealt with guys like him before and I'll just drop it there.
Give an example, please, of someone you've dealt with that was like focus.
:You guys don't see what is behind what he says,I do, and the only way to deal with guys like him is not to deal with him.
lol, yeah, for you that is true. It isn't a very level playing field for you. Of course you want to run, you shouldn't have opened your arrogant mouth in the first place.
:I will deal with topic from a cult related issue and thats all.
Consider my breath bated
:I gave enough information for anyone who's really interested to do there own research, and we can compare notes.
focus left some notes on the table, please compare.
:Mr Focus is a type of person that thinks he has all the answers and when taken up on a certain issue he attacks the person and forgets what the point was in the first place, so when I have an inkling of that type of attitude I don't bother with them.
Mr. Focus is smart and to the point. You are not. You are intimidated by Mr Focus, but you think you are a big swinging dick in ex-JWland and you think that maybe you can therefore avert attention away from the fact that you didn't have any reason to even enter into this discussion as you evidently have nothing to add. Please put your pants back on.
:So basically I'm more concerned with the way Mr Focus answers his apponents that what the actual topic is about.
Perhaps the intelligent thing for you to do in that case would be not to become one of Mr Focus "apponents". Why did you go down this road again?
:He would make an excellent High up Jw who works at Bethel because he uses the same tactics.
But of course, that is a lie, as anyone with reading comprehension can see.
:You guys can play his game I refuse!
You still haven't told us what "his game" is. Please enlighten. Frankly, I think you're game player here.
:Pretty sly guy!
Indeed. Would that Jesus bless you with a farklesworth of his wit.
:Enough said.
Or rather, you've run out of bluster? No, that can't be it.
Edited by - SixofNine on 3 November 2002 19:32:52
Jim:
Like Ditlieb Felderer said and you seem to agree, just a little over 200 Jw's died in the camps.
Well, in the light of most of the evidence, about 700 (the figure I used in the original post in this thread) were murdered by the Nazis, a few of which may have been by summary execution without prior incarceration in a concentration camp. There is certainly a margin of error of +/- 100 fatalities, or a bit more, on that figure.
So your agreeing with Mr Felderer! Is that not true?
Well, no, as seen above. But in that I do not believe WT claims of JW fatalities in the many thousands, yes.
Your point being?
And what precisely has "agreeing with Mr Felderer" on this matter this got to do with your claim that
[Focus's] understanding of what transpired in Germany [prior to the fall of the Nazis] is not corrrect
So what are your Jw credentials
I did not know one had to have credentials to post here. Does one? Where does it say so, please?
Such credentials as I choose to share are active "visible" participation in many discussion boards. Into which I have placed a great deal of information that hundreds of ex-jWs have stated to have been very valuable to them.
On this and other boards, using the handle "Focus", I have refuted, among others, the eminent Greg Stafford on matters grammatical, "Friend" on matters to do with child abuse (prior to Silentlambs going public) - and a great many "competent" WT defenders and apologists, especially claimed scientists, mathematicians and the like.
I have been active for a long time and in a variety of media. Much material written by myself appears (unattributed) on a variety of anti-cult websites, including several I have heard you mention in your posts on JWD.
Which leads me to the funny bit. Jim, you may profit from viewing your own post entitled "247 pages of WT failed predictions here!" - CLICK HERE
You have placed this List on your very own website here, Jim: http://users.rcn.com/jjrizo/thelist.doc
Your respondents said "Wow ... pretty exhaustive work" and "Holy Moley! Thanks Jjrizo!" and "I checked some of them [for accuracy], and they were perfect" and you responded "glad I saved it I'm sure many hours were put into that list."
Well, the person you are insulting right here (i.e. Focus) is the sole compiler of, and commentator in, and maintainer of, The List - and for every commented quote I have published, I have about 20 commented quotes I have not.
"An "own" goal, Jim?"
The List is all over the web - including Freeminds - and you are welcome to keep having it on your site, Jim!
The above brief resume represents about 15% of my anti-cult activities. The rest (including by far the choicest of the anti-WTBTS work via now defunct bulletin boards) I choose to keep to myself; sorry. There is good reason for the veil.
If in addition to credentials, you need character references, I suggest COJ (for a smile), Bill Bowen and AlanF, who know a little, Tom Talley, who knows a little more, LDH, who is good at guessing. If you start a thread asking for references for me, I am sure many here will oblige - though I do not think you will be too happy at what gets said. All my best character references are highly anonymous, though, and will so remain; sorry again.
I was here a year and a half before you; I guess perhaps you are unfamiliar with board mechanisms. Click here to see a list of my posts on this site, which would have answered all your questions
I am sorry if I am insufficiently Prominent, Bethelite Jim.
I should add that I find your posts entertaining, Jim. Is it you who has failed to understand me, rather than the other way around?
And I must reiterate:
To state that not many jWs were murdered by the Nazis is a fact. To state that anything other than an enormous number of Jews, Romany people, homosexuals etc. were murdered by the Nazis is vile defamation.
Comments - anyone?
, or are you here just to cause trouble?
I am here EXCLUSIVELY to cause the maximum possible trouble for the Watchtower (and for those who, consciously or otherwise, facilitate her wicked works) and to help those who have been damaged by the Old Whore.
--
Focus
(In His Mould, Made He Me Class)
Focus,
Correction. The source is the 1974 Yearbook of JWs and not the W.T.
Looks like the ball's back in your court Jim.
Anton
Jim Rizoli wrote:
This guy Focus has all the marks of one that uses cult like tactics.
Illustrate, please.
I've dealt with guys like him before and I'll just drop it there.
You mean other people have made a fool of you before? So? Live with it, or get to like it, or stop getting into situations where you make a fool of yourself.
You guys don't see what is behind what he says,I do,
Charles Taze Russell was VERY fond of using the very same argument, Jim. Any relation? He too was very intellectually contemptuous of his audience. With rather better reason than you have, Jim, I must observe.
and the only way to deal with guys like him is not to deal with him.
Aha, you mean shunning. Right. Old habits die hard, eh?
Trouble with "authority figures", eh?
Visiting the KH again, Jim? No? Then why treat me this way?
Its like an inside joke you don't see, and I' glad I caught on.
Baloney. Need for a remedial reading course is what is called for. I do not mean this spitefully or in any way demeaningly. Reading aloud helps.
People here are not going to be fooled by your above claim that "they don't see" hidden things that your special abilities make you able to see. Russell tried that crap with his invisible parousiacal nonsense - "the kings have had their day!". The Emperor With No Clothes trick, Jim?
Shame on you. A second try in the same post.
Are you in search of a Cult to lead?
Is there - gasp - jealousy somewhere?
I declare that I am absolutely anti-cult and will attack anyone seen to be following me (fool that they would be to do so). Feel better, Jim?
I will deal with topic from a cult related issue and thats all.
Now, that can't mean that YOU REFUSE TO MAKE ANY STATEMENT ABOUT THE TRUTH THAT MANY MILLIONS OF JEWS AND OTHERS WERE MURDERED BY THE NAZI SWINE?
And that Zundel is a nutcase?
I see from other posts in this thread that seeds of doubt have been placed in the minds of one or two.
I gave enough information for anyone who's really interested to do there own research, and we can compare notes.
I provided mine. Where are your notes? How can we compare notes if you won't show us your notes?
If the notes rely on Holocaust minimization arguments, I add that it is not hard for a competent scientist (ahem, ahem) and logician to refute any or all the revisionists, including the so-called "poison gas" expert and the "professional historian" so beloved of Zundel and other deniers. Their only shield is to demand impossibly high standards of proof from their opposers, while themselves enshrining gossip, hearsay and abominably poor science in an academician shroud.
Personally, I do not believe in censorship, as that allows this sort of trash to fester better. Nor do I believe in wasting oxygen on them. Do you in general agree, Jim?
But, I have digressed. Or - have I?
Mr Focus is a type of person that thinks he has all the answers
No. Mr Focus is a highly careful person who thinks carefully before posting or writing - and never blusters, whatever the appearance.
I concede that Mr Focus is prone to setting "innocent" little traps. All in the interests of Progressive Revelation. Helps spread knowledge.
and when taken up on a certain issue he attacks the person
Where and whom?
and forgets what the point was in the first place
That never happens.
Is it just that you managed to confuse yourself in the postings re Bill Bowen and Ray Franz, in one of which threads you first insulted me? I did not respond.
You really don't understand the point I made about the "Your Word Is A Lamp To My Foot" (1967) book? Or its date of publication? Or that its text is drawn from in [or]? And that the key date re Ray was not 1971, as COJ/Penton were maintaining, but 1965, as I stated, which was when he joined the Writing Department.
COJ and Penton grasped this perfectly, I am sure. I am awaiting COJ's reply. And I have lexically analyzed [yl] and Crisis of Conscience.
Focus to Penton & COJ - CLICK HERE
, so when I have an inkling of that type of attitude I don't bother with them.
The remedial reading, please. I am no snob, but if you are having comprehension problems at this level, you really should get it seen to, for your inklings are actually only tinklings.
So basically I'm more concerned with the way Mr Focus answers his apponents that what the actual topic is about.
Oh, so you were just "jerking off" here and had nothing to say about the main subject, as you were not concerned about it - right? In so doing you were insulting the other readers in the forum, and making light of an extremely serious issue (the murders of the Nazis, and the Watchtower's panderings thereto), for your own personal ends?
Jee(ri)z!
He would make an excellent High up Jw who works at Bethel because he uses the same tactics.
And, I might be.
Perhaps I am the Pope.
Have you taken a Gullibility Test, Jim?
Are you sure I have not been manipulating you all along?
Even from before we heard of eachother?
Kent, JanH, Farkel and UncleBruce can be added to my list of (bad) character references, while you are checking out my "credentials" - including those you are already using on your own website. So can Bibleman/Joshua92, who is the only person (AFAIK) on the JWD site who has discussed matters with me in real time, on "live chat". Two hours after that he decided to shut down his website for good. He is the third presence of the Messiah, Jim, so I'd be careful when demanding credentials. Farkel (DC) might prove a bit spikey too.
You guys can play his game I refuse!
What game? Exposing WT wickedness? Why do you think that is a game?
Pretty sly guy!
I am no F iend.
I keep my hand close to my chest most of the time, sure. With excellent reason, given some of the anti-cult activities enjoined.
Enough said.
Jim
No. When accusations are made, it is not done to duck away and run, sonny. It is you who has contempt for your audience, whom you have seriously underestimated. I do not either run or underestimate. When I have it wrong, I apologize. The last time on JWD was to "Yadirf".
Do you have ANY idea how foolish you are looking, Jim? You are not helping your own credibility - or your own future causes - by continuing this fiasco and not apologizing (to the otherrs) . Online search engines have amazing abilities, and awfully good memories, as hawkaw cautioned Penton a couple of days ago.
--
Focus
(Obi-Wan http://users.rcn.com/jjrizo/thelist.doc Class
ps: You need to brush up on your Strawmen. Since you can't do them properly, how can you possibly recognize them properly? You Know did it much better. And your use of multiple ad hominems, while complaining that I argue against the person, is disingenuous indeed.
Edited by - Focus on 3 November 2002 20:13:52
Since I have not researched this subject, I have nothing of substance to add. I will, however, state what I did before. I have read a very detailed manuscript by Dr. Penton, and he is in full agreement with the conclusions of Focus. I consider the remarks made by some of Focus's detractors to be very weak indeed. Considering the banality of some, I think that Focus is being kind indeed, in his replies.
I was never a JW either, does that make me less of a person? Does it make my posts less worthy? Does that make me a troll? Gee thanks Jim ... I needed that.
Anton
Jimoscus wrote:
Foscus is very condecendng, as you can see by his comments.
Now had I written "Jim is an insulting, rude, ignorant, barely literate, immature and very confused little boy, who gets himself into things he wishes he hadn't, and carries a giant chip on his shoulder, and that is why so many here are expressing surprise I am even acknowledging his delusions and self-important ravings" - that would have been condescending. But of course I will not say any such thing. And I do not think such a thing.
Friend, I don't mind tilting at windmills too. I was being "indulgent", not condescending.
Again, its not the subject but the way he deals with people.
And you are appointed (a) the determiner of what is the way to deal with people; and (b) the enforcer of such determination.
Whew. Ever thought of applying the rules to yourself?
And may I see your credentials, please?
Thanks for so explicitly acknowledging you have been wasting everyone else's time in this thread, trying to draw attention to yourself while having nothing you are able or perhaps willing (and enquiring minds must ask - WHY?) to communicate - as SixofNine identified. As you say, you have nothing to say re the subject - your obsession is with my person. And enquiring minds ask - why?
And the fact that he was not even a Jw tells me a lot.
Wow!!
Where did you read that?
I must have missed it. Please tell me. One learns new things here every day.
Or is it reading comprehension, again. If so, sad. It will hamper almost everything you seek to achieve.
He's a real peach!
Thanks!
Those who keep seeing things, or claiming ot see things, that other people don't, have the "The Russell Gift". Used by swindlers, charlatans, idiots, fake cult-opposers and trolls. Which, if any, are you?
I guess you'll never realize how gentle I am being with you. Larc and a few other old-timers are aware of this. What's biting you, Jim?
--
Focus
(Prominent Biterite Class)
Edited by - Focus on 3 November 2002 20:35:56
