ray franze

by rekless 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • Dismembered


    Ray was doomed either way and anyone who knows how the Watchtower Propaganda Corporation works will agree
    100% right. The WTBS would not tolerate any dissension among the ranks. Which is why he was booted in the first place. And to further my point that's why I never made GB. For simply refusing to remove my hat.
  • Trauma_Hound

    Ahh poor farkel, doesn't have anything better to say, so he's switched to personal attacks.

  • Focus

    rekless probably goes a little too far, but rekless is not wrong in his gut feelings about the whole affair.

    Franz wanted to cling on. In some ways, he still does (at least, to some parts). That is clear. I understand. I sympathize. But he is not one of "the great and the good". He is of the Olin Moyle Class (and not of the Salter rank or Man of Achan Class), and I am the authority on WT Classes and Ranks. Nor does Franz explicitly ever claim to be great. Perhaps, not even implicitly. But his followers do. And they must be corrected. And correct them I have.

    Had Franz been motivated by a desire to help OTHERS effectively while he was still within the Borg but had begun to see the light, he could have been so, so more effective in the manner of his leaving... As it happened, the WT Damage Limitation Team managed to paper over things pretty well, all things considered.

    Spilt milk. But Franz will not admit he could or should have done more. And enquiring minds want to know, WHY?

    Farkel, Simon and others, I have left my $0.03 on this matter at:

    * Focus on Bill Bowen and Ray Franz (CENSORED) - Click here

    where I have been kinder to you than would some others.

    At least "we" do not comprise a mindless, heartless Borg. Wide differences of opinions exist among the opposers of "Da Trewth". These, from time to time, spill out into the open. Generally, that is a Good Thing.

    And for those with reading impairments, I am not here to bury Ray in any way, but just to praise him as is deserved.

    Some relevant verse, from a more learned source than the Babble, may be found at
    * Bill Bowen's Comments on Ray Franz - Click here

    (Anti-Spiritual-Pornography and General-Exposure-of-F_iends Class)

    Edited by - Focus on 28 October 2002 7:1:47

  • Amazing

    Hi Rekless:

    Third I strill have this one question about his intergity toward mankind ... he only wrote about the wrong doings of the GB after he was DFed. Most of us on this board stop going and DA ourselves after we found out about the channel to God was a big joke. All I see is Mr. Franz has used his position as an Ex GB to make a very nice living for himself in his latter years.

    Did you expect him to openly write about the wrongs before he was DF'd? Perhap while on the GB to write maverick material? If you read his books you must have covered the walk that he as an individual had in life. He was raised a JW and his entire family were all JWs ... he believed in the religion as did most of us. As for using his position to make money ... maybe a good review of what it cost to publish a book would help people realize that he is not wealthy ... his home is modest.

    I feel if he wasn't DFed he would still be hanging on to the beliefs of the Jw's and still be letting innocent people die, because he didn't come forth and spill his guts while he was on the GB.

    I seriously doubt it. If you read his books and corresponded at length with him then you would understand that he has grown far from the organization ... any of us could still be JWs were it not for any number of circumstances.

    Really letting all of us think that there was a direct channel to God through the Gb makes him as blood guilty as those that are still there votinbg 2/3 whether the poor jdubs should live or die. This voting cost me a son that died of leukemia and a wife of a rare blood disorder.

    This tendency in some to retro-judge someone for things done in one era by the impossible standards of a new era is most disturbing. He believed in the religion. He believed that God was using it as his instrument. The blood doctrine was there before he joined the GB ... and if you recall, as his personal awakening started, he tried to sway the GB ... being a little successful, but mostly out manned and outgunned by the old guard. So he decided to resign ... but before he could resign, they forced him out ... and you would know that if you read his books.

    Yes, he may be a hero to most of you but if he had made a stand and walked away telling what he told after he was DFed then he would be a hero to me also, but he has play both ends against the middle and came out smelling like a rose.

    Your statement here does not make sense ... you say, ... " ... but if he had made a stand and walked away telling what he told after he was DFed then he would be a hero to me also ... " Thaty is what he did and in your opening you complained about him waiting to tell all until after he was DF'd ... I fail to understand how you can want it both ways.

    When I found out about the Malawi and Mexico thing I stopped going and DAed myself right after my wife passed away. Where is his intergity to expose the organization before he was DFed???

    Now it is back to before he was DF'd ... okay ... let's stick with that ... you really expect a GB member to try to tell all and get the word out to 4 million (circa 1978) Jehovah's Witnesses? He would not have lasted a New York minute ... he chose to do it the way he did just as most of us chose to take our individual paths ... this self-righteous second guessing someone else's life is really getting old ... using critical thinking is healthy ... but to invent things to criticize just to ciriticize seems rather bizzare.

    He only exposed them after he no longer was associated with them.

    Yes, we got that ... and it stands to reason ... his exit was a process ... as was mine, and yours, and many others ...

    I have lost a daughter, grandchildren, and friends because I was true to myself .

    Are they still JWs? What you experienced is bad. But could you have found a way to get them out before you were DA'd/DF'd?

    Yes, I have a right to critisize him because he gave up nothing on his own. He was forced to turn turn coat. If he could be reinstated today he would. They won't take him back so he has nothing else to do but sell you who are gulible books.

    If you read his books and his recent comments to this board, you would know he would not go back. Ray Franz told me about twelve years ago that he would never seek reinstatement because he sees no truth in the religion or any guidance from God directing it ... You call his books for the gulible? Fascinating.

    flame me you morons.

    Dan, this closing statement of your surprised me. You now talk down to to anyone who would disagree with you ... this does not seem like the Dan that I have known up to now ... but the things you have stated about Ray Franz, especially after claiming to have read his books and corresponded with him to be way off mark from who the man really is.

  • DannyBear

    Some of you ex-elder's will remember this.

    It was the late 70's and many of the wt articles were encouraging jw's to use thier own 'christian consciences' to decide on matter's like, choice of entertainment, dress, etc. This advice was very much a result of Ray Franz's efforts to get the hard-line policy guys to back off on all the talmud-like rules and regs, that were prevelant at the time.

    As an elder at that time, I was pulled back and forth over this issue of exercing one's own conscience. Having come from a background of hard line wtbs 'right or wrong', 'jump, but just how high' family background.

    In looking in retrospect, that little span of time, where Ran Franz and perhaps a few other's on the GB were trickeling out this message on freedom of conscience.......it was in fact a small wind stirring in at least the bodies of elder's. A wind that if left to blow through the cobwebs of all the 'rules and regulations', may well have started the engines of the organization down a path of freedom.

    Yet all that almost overnite stopped cold. It was in fact when Ray and other's at Bethel were being investigated for such independent reading of the bible and exercise of the freedom of personal consience.

    The pendulam then swung back to the old tried and true, do it our way or die. The Wtbs may well have been an entirely different org, had Ray and other far sighted individuals, been allowed to exercise freedom of conscience. Who know's what would have been the outcome.

    Instead fellas like Ted Jarass became more and more prominent for thier zealous hard line attitudes.


    Edited by - DannyBear on 28 October 2002 9:36:15

  • Princess

    Charlie, I wasn't directing my comments at you personally.

    Edited by - Princess on 28 October 2002 10:50:31

  • orangefatcat

    I am confused here, I don't recall anywhere that Bill said he didn't like Ray. These are two men who have agreed to disagree. That is what I thought. So if the two of them are satisfied to let things be why is everyone up in arms about it? As far as I am concerned both men have done great things. I see Bill's side and I see Ray's side. Let the two men work out things for themselves, building animosity on the forum is outrageous and childish. Yes you are all entitled to your opinions and yes we have freedom of speech, but to what lengths do you have to go to hurt a person. If you stop and think about it, its almost a form of persecution. Don't laugh its not funny,. When will you stop?? Shall we accost our own names and persona? Would you like it? When we were in the organization we believed as they believed. When we left we knew it was going to be difficult. Staying in the org. was terrible for many. For many awlful things happened. But we have to realize we are now putting it behind us now. Bill has chosen to help those who have not been able to get a listening ear. Ray has chosen to help those in another way. Each man has his own gift. Why should they have to keep defending themselves on the board? This is at least how I feel about the matter.


  • larc

    reckless, I began my research into the faults of the relgion when I was 18, and I faded away four years later. That was before the internet, before the majority of apostate books were written, before the out reach news letters. I have more wisdom and insight than both you or Ray Franz. The blood guilt is on you not Ray for the loss of your son and wife. How does that make you feel? You are responsible. No one else. Now, let me add, that I don't believe a word of what I just wrote. I just wanted to show you an example of your own logic used against you. We were all enmeshed in a bad system. How, when, and why we got out is somewhat a matter of chance and circumstance. Your casting stones at others is simply wrong.

  • ThiChi

    Amazing: right on, thanks for setting the facts straight for the weak minded, IMHO.

    Edited by - thichi on 28 October 2002 11:19:59

    Edited by - thichi on 28 October 2002 11:22:7

  • Buster

    I remember when I ordered CofC and what I expected to get. I was firmly prepared to berate the author for having been part of the problem for so long. I was so set that it actually took me a while into the book to come to believe his soft tone was genuine. But the most significant change in my attitude came when he addressed the exact point. I don't remember his actual words, but he acknowledged the only reason he know so much was that he had gone along with the program for so long.

    I got a sense that he was trying to inform. I got a sense that he was not trying to build a line of followers, either for his own agrandizement or for some sad mode of revenge.

    Hey, but for any who want to follow him (whether he is leading or not): You get what you ask for - man-made leadership.

    (I can't get the 'Life of Brain' scenes out of my head.)

    - Buster

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