Can any believer answer this?

by LucidSky 116 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Crazy151drinker

    till next time prom, its time to trick or treat.........................

  • gumby

    An interpretation is NEVER wrong, because interpretations come form God.

    Weeeeeeel now! I think we got the pomer by the balls here dont we!

    Let's see.......God inspires a man to understand we can lose our salvation and the OTHER man he inspires believes you can never lose it....Gee , both are inspired of God ? So God lies and tells one guy one thing and another guy another thing.

    Doesn't sound to good to me.

  • gumby

    By the way....your no no comment was really was deep.

    You never explained my "novel by ther old lady" thing. You just said no no.

  • rem


    I did not confuse grammar and context. I said both were important.

    Here is the scripture in question:

    Romans 5:12-15: 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

    You claim that the scripture is talking about law in general, but it is clear both by context and by grammar that the Mosaic Law is being referenced. First, the definite article is being used before the greek word law, indicating that a specific law is being referenced, not law in general. Next we can see by the context that the Mosaic Law is "the law" that is being talked about. In verse 14 it says "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses". It is clear that the scripture is talking about sins that happened before Moses' time and the Mosaic law.

    This is the clearest interpretation of the text - it lets the scripture speak for itself. There is no need for a strained interpretation. Apparently the leading bible scholars agree with this as well:

    John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
    Romans 5:13
    For until the law, sin was in the world
    This is a proof of sin's having entered into the world, by one man's transgression of the positive law of God, which forbid him the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; since it was in the world before the law of Moses was given: the sin of Adam and the guilt of that were in the world before, and came upon all men to condemnation; the general corruption of nature appeared before; and actual sins, and transgressions of all sorts were committed before; as by the immediate posterity of Adam, by the men of the old world, by the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, by the patriarchs and their posterity, by the Egyptians, Canaanites, and others. They were all guilty of sin, corrupted by it, and under the dominion of it, except such as were released from it by the grace of God: now when sin is said to be until this time, the meaning is not that it existed and continued until the law of Moses took place, and then ceased; for that law did not, and could not take away sin, it rather increased it, at least it became more known by it; but that it was in being before it, and had influence and power over the sons of men, so as to subject them to death:
    but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    This looks like an objection, that if there was no law before Moses's time, then there was no sin, nor could any action of man be known or accounted by them as sinful, or be imputed to them to condemnation; or rather it is a concession, allowing that where there is no law, sin is not imputed; but there was a law before that law of Moses, which law was transgressed, and the sin or transgression of it was imputed to men to condemnation and death, as appears from what follows.

    Jamieson, Fausset, BrownCommentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible13, 14. For until the law sin was in the world--that is during all the period from Adam "until the law" of Moses was given, God continued to treat men as sinners.
    but sin is not imputed where there is no law--"There must therefore have been a law during that period, because sin was then imputed"; as is now to be shown.

    Matthew Henry Complete Commentary
    on the Whole Bible
    Further, to clear this, he shows that sin did not commence with the law of Moses, but was in the world until, or before, that law; therefore that law of Moses is not the only rule of life, for there was a rule, and that rule was transgressed, before the law was given. It likewise intimates that we cannot be justified by our obedience to the law of Moses, any more than we were condemned by and for our disobedience to it. Sin was in the world before the law; witness Cains murder, the apostasy of the old world, the wickedness of Sodom. His inference hence is, Therefore there was a law; for sin is not imputed where there is no law. Original sin is a want of conformity to, and actual sin is a transgression of, the law of God: therefore all were under some law. His proof of it is, Death reigned from Adam to Moses, v. 14
    People's New Testament12-14. Wherefore. The section which now follows is one of the most difficult in the Bible to explain clearly in the compass of a few words. It opens up one of the profoundest questions of theology. The "wherefore" refers to the reconciliation (atonement) of Christ spoken of in verse 11. Christ's work of atonement and the effect of Adam's sins are contrasted. As by one man's sin. By the sin of Adam. Thus sin entered into the world. The world of mankind is meant. Death by sin. Death was led in by sin. Had there been no sin, there had been no death. "The tree of life stood in the midst of the garden." So death passed upon all men. As the result of one man's sin. For that all have sinned. The personal sins of responsible persons are not now spoken of, but all the race sinned in Adam, its representative, infants, idiots, and all. Hence all die. 13. For until the law. Paul now shows that all must have sinned in Adam. Until law is given sin is not imputed. Yet sin must have been in the world from the time of Adam until the law of Moses, because death, which is due to sin, reigned. The prevalence of death proved the existence of sin. 14. Death reigned from Adam to Moses. None could escape his universal dominion. He reigned, (1) although law had not come; (2) and those over whom he reigned had not repeated Adam's sin. (3) Unconscious infants could not have sinned against natural law. Hence the inference is that all had sinned in Adam. Hence, again, Adam is a representative man, a representative of all the race, a figure of him that was to come. A type of Christ, likewise a representative of all the race. Through the one all have sinned; through the other all are made righteous, as far as the sin in Adam is involved.

    Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

    Until the law (acri nomou). Until the Mosaic law. Sin was there before the Mosaic law, for the Jews were like Gentiles who had the law of reason and conscience (Romans 2:12-16), but the coming of the law increased their responsibility and their guilt (Romans 2:9). Sin is not imputed (amartia de ouk ellogeitai). Present passive indicative of late verb ellogaw (-ew) from en and logo, to put down in the ledger to one's account, examples in inscription and papyri. When there is no law (mh onto nomou). Genitive absolute, no law of any kind, he means. There was law before the Mosaic law. But what about infants and idiots in case of death? Do they have responsibility? Surely not. The sinful nature which they inherit is met by Christ's atoning death and grace. No longer do men speak of "elect infants."

    The scripture is clear - it is talking about the Mosaic Law.


  • pomegranate
    That is nonsense.

    In order for you to rightly claim NONSENSE, you would have to portray SENSE. Which is the problem with all you guys. You have condemned my belief WITHOUT presenting anything to counter it. Some say, like gumby, I don't know what to believe and I don't know what's true. I am a firm believer in that if you don't know what's true, you cannot recognize what's false. But that's ALL you guys do. Condemn what's false without knowing what's true.

    That is dishonest.

    If that is the case, then you have no foundation on which to base your condemnation.

    It easy to condemn without counter point. You just flatly disagree, call my God an ass, and have nothing to put in it's place. That's all CHEAP SHOTS. Well guys, I'd rather be like me with a firm set of beliefs that are quite logical and sound to me, rather than like you sitting and floundering in disbelief and skepticism condemning everyone that seems to have a belief that they can sink their teeth into. Who's the one lacking here? Surely isn't me.

    You suggest that Im ignorant yet you are trying to say that God cannot kill Satan until the end of days.

    Eccl 3:1-3
    There is a time for everything,
    and a season for every activity under heaven:

    2 a time to be born and a time to die,
    a time to plant and a time to uproot,
    3 a time to kill and a time to heal,

    Please. God can do whatever, whenever, to whomever he pleases.

    That's EXACTLY what I say. He will do it ON HIS OWN TIME SCHEDULE not according to guys like gumby's wreckless impatience. So yes, God can do whatever He wants, when He wants all the while waiting till the time is PERFECT to fulfill his will and accomplish His purpose, according to HIS time schedule.

    Dont try to limit his power with your foolish theories...

    I don't. You do. By the way, what's YOUR foolish theory?

    And how is Satan guilty of Christ's murder???

    The Jews are Satan's offspring...his kids killed Father's kid. Bad thing to do, ya know? Gets a Father, well, very upset.

    Its impossible,

    No it isn't. Read Jesus words before he died...

    and if you want to get technical, God knew that Jesus would get killed

    BOTH knew before hand. Jesus WILLINGLY went down. He knew he was the Lamb, as he went down by his own FREEDOM.

    and set the whole thing up so either God is an Accomplice (since he did nothing to stop it and he could have) or its entrapment.

    Or TWO working together as one. I believe I'm right.

    Your arguments are Nonsense.

    Please present your argument of sense rather than your smoking condemnation based on not even knowing the truth yourself.

    Or, do you even have one?

  • pomegranate

    Luke 10:21
    At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

    I always leave a thread once the personal insults begin to fly. As with evolutionists, insults are the sure sign of the losing position.

    Good evening.

  • rem
    and if you want to get technical, God knew that Jesus would get killed

    BOTH knew before hand. Jesus WILLINGLY went down. He knew he was the Lamb, as he went down by his own FREEDOM.

    So God is justified in killing Satan because Jesus commits suicide?

    Again, Pomegranate feigns offense over alleged insults and threatens to leave the discussion. His usual tactic when his ideas are shown to be ridiculous.


    Edited by - rem on 31 October 2002 20:58:4

  • cellomould

    Interesting comment there, rem...

    by the way, have you read Carl Jung's Answer to Job? He makes some interesting comments about the nature of Satan (he's likened to a part of God's conscience which God wants to expel from his omniscient mind), God becoming man in two ways (not just one), and the divine quaternity (like the four faces of the angelic creatures in Ezekiel).

    I just finished it...I highly recommend it.


  • UnDisfellowshipped

    Navigator said:


    Why would you claim for Jesus what Jesus did not claim for himself? Jesus was not God, nor did he claim to be. He did claim to embody the qualities of God, but that is not the same as claiming to be God. When the "rich young ruler" addressed him as "Good Master", Jesus replied "Why callest thou me good?" "None is good save God".

    Let me make clear that I want everyone to NEVER believe what I say until you make sure what is True in the Scriptures.

    First of all, that Scripture about the rich young ruler is not Translated the same in different Bible Translations. Here are a few different:

    1901 American Standard Version:

    Matthew 19:16: And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    Matthew 19:17: And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

    1965 Bible in Basic English:

    Matthew 19:16: And one came to him and said, Master, what good thing have I to do, so that I may have eternal life?
    Matthew 19:17: And he said to him, Why are you questioning me about what is good? One there is who is good: but if you have a desire to go into life, keep the rules of the law.

    1889 Darby Bible:

    Matthew 19:16: And lo, one coming up said to him, Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have life eternal?
    Matthew 19:17: And he said to him, What askest thou me concerning goodness? one is good. But if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

    The Good News Bible:

    Matthew 19:16: Once a man came to Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what good thing must I do to receive eternal life?"
    Matthew 19:17: "Why do you ask me concerning what is good?" answered Jesus. "There is only One who is good. Keep the commandments if you want to enter life."

    GOD'S WORD Translation:

    Matthew 19:16: Then a man came to Jesus and said, "Teacher, what good deed should I do to gain eternal life?"
    Matthew 19:17: Jesus said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you want to enter into life, obey the commandments."

    International Standard Version (ISV):

    Matthew 19:16: Just then a man came up to Jesus and said, "Teacher, what good deed should I do to have eternal life?"
    Matthew 19:17: Jesus said to him, "Why ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you want to get into that life, you must keep the commandments."

    Revised Standard Version:

    Matthew 19:16: And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
    Matthew 19:17: And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

    1912 Weymouth Translation:

    Matthew 19:16: "Teacher," said one man, coming up to Him, "what that is good shall I do in order to win the Life of the Ages?"
    Matthew 19:17: "Why do you ask me," He replied, "about what is good? There is only One who is truly good. But if you desire to enter into Life, keep the Commandments."

    So, it appears to me that Jesus could very well have been saying, "Why do you say what good thing must I do, for there is only One who is Good".

    Because, if Jesus was saying that He was not Good, and He was not God, then He contradicts Himself in the following Verses:

    John 10:11: I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His Life for the sheep.

    John 10:14: I am the Good Shepherd. I know My own, and I'm known by My own;

    Also, it could be that Jesus was saying, "Why do you call Me Good if you think I am only a Man, there is only One who is Good, God!"

    So, perhaps He was telling the man that He was God.

    Here are the Verses which are the reason for me believing that Jesus is God:

    John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 20:28: Thomas answered Him, "My Lord and my God!"
    John 20:29: Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed."

    John 5:23: that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent Him.

    Acts 7:59: They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit!"
    Acts 7:60: He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, don't hold this sin against them!" When he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Hebrews 1:6: Again, when He brings in the Firstborn into the world He says, "Let all the angels of God worship Him."

    Revelation 5:11: I saw, and I heard something like a voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousands of ten thousands, and thousands of thousands;
    Revelation 5:12: saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who has been killed to receive the power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing!"
    Revelation 5:13: I heard every created thing which is in Heaven, on the Earth, under the Earth, on the sea, and everything in them, saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion, forever and ever! Amen!"
    Revelation 5:14: The four living creatures said, "Amen!" The elders fell down and worshiped.

  • gumby

    Pom said.......I am a firm believer in that if you don't know what's true, you cannot recognize what's false. But that's ALL you guys do. Condemn what's false without knowing what's true.

    First of all ....I'll be nicer this time......just this time.

    There are many thing we do not know what is true.....yet we can honestly dissern what is false.Example: How old was the apostle paul when he died? You don't know do you? can honestly say he was not 980 can't you? That is false. didn't know the truth in this case, but you could recognise the false.

    I condemn false without knowing truth. And so do you Pom. You are not absolutely sure of many things you believe.....yet you do the same as us.....disagree or condemn what others here believe.

    Edited by - Gumby on 2 November 2002 8:25:37

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