The historicy of Jesus Christ: I need your help

by Ginosko 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Ginosko
    Ginosko

    Hi,

    Recently I was reading about the historicy of Jesus Christ and I found some documents quite perturbant, one of them is located in this URL: http://www.courses.drew.edu/sp2000/BIBST189.001/Jesusmys.html

    I found especially perturbant the parallels in the conclusion between Jesus Christ and Osiris-Dionysus.

    Of course any kind of material could the published in the internet, but, are these parallels thrue ? ... On the other hand, I believe that yes: is possible that the devil really has perfected the art of mimicry and even anticiped the acts of God, but I don't belive that this argument is strong enought.

    Please don't read this material if you are in some way weak on your faith. It coud be dangerous. This warning could not be a joke.

  • Valis
    Valis

    Hey Ginsoko...perhaps this will help..

    And this one..

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

    Edited by - Valis on 23 October 2002 17:39:50

  • Ginosko
    Ginosko

    Hi Valis,

    Thanks, the second is new for me.

  • Ginosko
    Ginosko

    Hi,

    Following is some of the information of Dionysus and Osiris in the Britannica Encyclopadia. I don't know from where the authors could obtain the information of the parallels with Jesus Christ. Maybe all the information in the first URL is crazy.

    Dionysus, also called BACCHUS , or (in Rome) LIBER, in Greco-Roman religion, a nature god of fruitfulness and vegetation, especially known as a god of wine and ecstasy. Though introduced from Thrace and Phrygia, the strange legends of his birth and death and his marriage to Ariadne, in origin a Cretan goddess, suggest that his cult represented a reversion to pre-Hellenic Minoan nature religion. (see also Index: Minoan civilization)

    According to the most popular tradition, Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Semele, a daughter of Cadmus (king of Thebes), but in origin a Phrygian earth goddess. Hera, the wife of Zeus, out of jealousy persuaded Semele to prove her lover's divinity by requesting him to appear in his real person. Zeus complied, but his power was too great for the mortal Semele, who was blasted with thunderbolts. Zeus, however, saved his son by sewing him up in his thigh, keeping him there until he reached maturity, so that he was twice born. Dionysus was then conveyed by the god Hermes to be brought up by the Bacchants (Maenads, or Thyiads) of Nysa, a purely imaginary spot.

    As Dionysus apparently represented the sap, juice, or lifeblood element in nature, lavish festal orgia (rites) in his honour were widely instituted. These Dionysia (Bacchanalia , q.v.) quickly won converts among the women in the post-Mycenaean world. The men, however, met it with hostility. According to tradition, Pentheus, king of Thebes, was torn to pieces by the Bacchants when he attempted to spy on their activities, while the Athenians were punished with impotence for dishonouring the god's cult. The women, nevertheless, abandoned their families and took to the hills, wearing fawn skins and crowns of ivy and shouting "Euoi!," the ritual cry. Forming thyasi (holy bands) and waving thyrsoi (fennel wands bound with vine leaves and tipped with ivy), they danced by torchlight to the rhythm of the flute and the tympanon (kettledrum). While they were under the god's inspiration, the Bacchants were believed to possess occult powers, the ability to charm snakes and suckle animals, as well as preternatural strength that enabled them to tear living victims to pieces before indulging in a ritual feast (omophagia). The Bacchants hailed the god by his titles of Bromios (Thunderer), Taurokeros (Bull-Horned), or Tauroprosopos (Bull-Faced), in the belief that he incarnated the sacrificial beast. The worship of Dionysus flourished long in Asia Minor, particularly in Phrygia and Lydia, and his cult was closely associated with that of numerous Asiatic deities.

    Although Dionysus was believed to have descended to the underworld to bring back his mother Semele and was also associated with Persephone in southern Italy, any original connection between the god and the netherworld seems doubtful. Dionysus did, however, possess the gift of prophecy, and at Delphi he was received by the priesthood on almost equal terms with Apollo. He had an oracle in Thrace and was later patron of a healing shrine at Amphicleia in Phocis.

    The followers of Dionysus included spirits of fertility, such as the satyrs, and in his ritual the phallus was prominent. He often took on a bestial shape and was associated with various animals. His personal attributes were an ivy wreath, the thyrsus, and the kantharos, a large two-handled goblet. In early art he was represented as a bearded man, but later he was portrayed as youthful and effeminate. Bacchic revels were a favourite subject with vase painters, though the private lodges of Bacchus were rigorously suppressed throughout Italy by senatorial edict in 186 BC.

    Related Internet Links:

    The Bacchantes

    Copyright 1994-1999 Encyclopdia Britannica

    Osiris, also called USIRI, one of the most important gods of ancient Egypt. The origin of Osiris is obscure; he was a local god of Busiris, in Lower Egypt, and may have been a personification of chthonic (underworld) fertility, or possibly a deified hero. By about 2400 BC, however, Osiris clearly played a double role: he was both a god of fertility and the embodiment of the dead and resurrected king. This dual role was in turn combined with the Egyptian concept of divine kingship: the king at death became Osiris, god of the underworld; and the dead king's son, the living king, was identified with Horus, a god of the sky. Osiris and Horus were thus father and son. The goddess Isis was the mother of the king and was thus the mother of Horus and consort of Osiris. The god Seth was considered the murderer of Osiris and adversary of Horus.

    According to the form of the myth reported by the Greek author Plutarch, Osiris was slain or drowned by Seth, who tore the corpse into 14 pieces and flung them over Egypt. Eventually, Isis and her sister Nephthys found and buried all the pieces, except the phallus, thereby giving new life to Osiris, who thenceforth remained in the underworld as ruler and judge. Isis revived Osiris by magical means and conceived her son Horus by him. Horus later successfully fought against Seth and became the new king of Egypt.

    Osiris was not only ruler of the dead but also the power that granted all life from the underworld, from sprouting vegetation to the annual flood of the Nile River. From about 2000 BC onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death. This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the next world and through one's descendants on Earth. In this universalized form Osiris' cult spread throughout Egypt, often joining with the cults of local fertility and underworld deities.

    The idea that rebirth in the next life could be gained by following Osiris was maintained through certain cult forms. In the Middle Kingdom the god's festivals consisted of processions and nocturnal rites and were celebrated at the temple of Abydos, where Osiris had assimilated the very ancient god of the dead, Khenty-Imentin. This name, meaning "Foremost of the Westerners," was adopted by Osiris as an epithet. Because the festivals took place in the open, public participation was permitted, and by the early 2nd millennium BC it became fashionable to be buried on the processional road at Abydos or to erect a cenotaph there as a representative of the dead.

    Osiris festivals symbolically reenacting the god's fate were celebrated annually in various towns throughout Egypt. A central feature of the festivals was the construction of the "Osiris garden," a mold in the shape of Osiris, filled with soil and various drugs. The mold was moistened with the water of the Nile and sown with grain. Later, the sprouting grain symbolized the vital strength of Osiris.

    At Memphis the holy bull, Apis, was linked with Osiris, becoming Osiris-Apis, which eventually became the name of the Hellenistic god Sarapis. Greco-Roman authors connected Osiris with the god Dionysus. Osiris was also identified with Soker, an ancient Memphite god of the dead.

    The oldest known depiction of Osiris dates to about 2300 BC, but representations of him are rare before the New Kingdom (1539-1075 BC), when he was shown in an archaizing form as a mummy with his arms crossed on his breast, one hand holding a crook, the other a flail. On his head was the atef-crown, composed of the white crown of Upper Egypt and two ostrich feathers.

    Copyright 1994-1999 Encyclopdia Britannica
  • Ginosko
    Ginosko

    Hi,

    Here is another URL, seems that the information could be obtained from the early christian writers: http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

    Same warning as my first post.

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    Aninteresting point is the compairison of the Christian beleifs and the ancient Mystery cults, and that last website made that clear. Really the Christian religion is nothing more then the mystery cults such as Osiris, Mythras, Attis and such with a Jewish twist to it. This being becasue it was a new religion made up from the ancient beliefs and then added the Attonment for Sin into it. I really do not think that this mystery person Jesus (Yehsuah) was the originator of the religion, it was really Paul. If you examine the scriptures of the NT who wrote most of it?? Paul or one of his followers i.e. Mark and Luke (Well that's who they said wrote them). The only books of the NT that they feel were written by he ones they are attributed to are many of the books that Paul wrote, the rest is Very Questionable.

    Here is a bit if reseach on the subject of the start of Christianity that you may find interesting.

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/paul.htm Mid-way down this page there are a lot of links that may interest you as well on this subject

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/jesus_myth.htm

    http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/origins.htm

    http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html

    http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/ This site has copies of an internet publication that has since stopped and covers many topics, including this one.

    http://www.williamedelen.com/ministries.html a very thought provoking series of news paper columns written by Willam Edelen some on the Verasity of a historical Jesus.

    Ok well there's enough reading for about 2 weeks

    Have fun
    Seedy

  • yucca
    yucca

    RESEARCHERS SAY A 2,000-YEAR OLD OSSUARY-A BURIAL BOX USED BY JEWS AT THE TIME OF CHRIST TO HOLD THE BONES OF THE DECEASED-MAY BE THE FIRST EXTRA-BIBLICAL EVIDENCE THAT REFERS TO JESUS AS AN ACTUAL PERSON AND IDENTIFIES JAMES AS HIS BROTHER. SOME EXPERTS ON ANCIENT INSCRIPTIONS CLAIM THAT THE ARAMAIC INSCRIPTION ON THE TOP READS JAMES,SON OF JOSEPH, BROTHER OF JESUS AND REFERS TO JESUS OF NAZARETH. GOD BLESS

  • Ginosko
    Ginosko

    Hi,

    For Seddy3: I was looking for support of the historicy of Jesus Christ, but seems that there are not to much. Thanks for your information. Actually I'm downloading the writings of the Early Fathers to see what they write about. I'll see what do the Encyclopaedia Britannica talk about mystery religion.

    For Yucca: Yes I'm aware of it, and for me seems interesting. But we may wait for more research. At least it may probe that some important Yeshua live's in Jererusalem in the days of Jesus Christ.

  • Ginosko
    Ginosko

    Hi,

    Here are two articles of the British Enciclopaedia about mystery religion but they are a lot.

    MYSTERY RELIGIONS AND CHRISTIANITY

    Christianity originated during the time of the Roman Empire, which was also the time at which the mysteries reached their height of popularity. This was by no means an accident. The Christian theologian Origen wrote in the 3rd century that it was part of the divine plan that Christ was born under the emperor Augustus: the whole Mediterranean world was united by the Romans, and the conditions for missionary work were more favourable than ever before. The simultaneousness of the propagation of the mystery religions and of Christianity and the striking similarities between them, however, demand some explanation of their relationship. The hypothesis of a mutual dependence has been proposed by scholars--especially a dependence of Christianity upon the mysteries--but such theories have been discarded. The similarities must rather be explained by parallel developments from similar origins. In both cases, national religions of a ritualistic type were transformed, and the transformation followed similar lines: from national to ecumenical religion, from ritualistic ceremonies and taboos to spiritual doctrines set down in books, from the idea of inherited tradition to the idea of revelation. The parallel development was fostered by the new conditions prevailing in the Roman Empire, in which the old political units were dissolved, and the whole civilized world was ruled by one monarch . People were free to move from one country to another and became cosmopolitan. The ideas of Greek philosophy penetrated everywhere in this society. Thus, under identical conditions, new forms of religious communities sprang from similar roots. The mystery religions and Christianity had many similar features--e.g., a time of preparation before initiation and periods of fasting; baptism and banquets; vigils and early-morning ceremonies; pilgrimages and new names for the initiates. The purity demanded in the worship of Sol and in the Chaldean fire rites was similar to Christian standards. The first Christian communities resembled the mystery communities in big cities and seaports by providing social security and the feeling of brotherhood. In the Christian congregations of the first two centuries, the variety of rites and creeds was almost as great as in the mystery communities; few of the early Christian congregations could have been called orthodox according to later standards. The date of Christmas was purposely fixed on December 25 to push into the background the great festival of the sun god, and Epiphany on January 6 to supplant an Egyptian festival of the same day. The Easter ceremonies rivalled the pagan spring festivals. The religious art of the Christians continued the pagan art of the preceding generations. The Christian representations of the Madonna and child are clearly the continuation of the representations of Isis and her son suckling her breast. The statue of the Good Shepherd carrying his lost sheep and the pastoral themes on Christian sarcophagi were also taken over from pagan craftsmanship. (see also Index: social class, Early Christian art)

    In theology the differences between early Christians, Gnostics (members--often Christian--of dualistic sects of the 2nd century AD), and pagan Hermetists were slight. In the large Gnostic library discovered at Naj'Hammadi, in upper Egypt, in 1945, Hermetic writings were found sideby-side with Christian Gnostic texts. The doctrine of the soul taught in Gnostic communities was almost identical to that taught in the mysteries: the soul emanated from the Father, fell into the body, and had to return to its former home. The Greeks interpreted the national religions of the Greek Orient chiefly in terms of Plato's philosophical and religious concepts. Interpretation in Platonic concepts was also the means by which the Judeo-Christian set of creeds was thoroughly assimilated to Greek ideas by the early Christian thinkers Clement of Alexandria and Origen. Thus, the religions had a common conceptual framework. The doctrinal similarity is exemplified in the case of the pagan writer and philosopher Synesius. The people of Cyrene selected him as the most able man of the city to be their bishop, and he was able to accept the election without sacrificing his intellectual honesty. In his pagan period he wrote hymns that closely follow the fire theology of the Chaldean Oracles; later he wrote hymns to Christ. The doctrine is almost identical.

    The similarity of the religious vocabulary is also great. Greek life was characterized by such things as democratic institutions, seafaring, gymnasium and athletic games, theatre, and philosophy. The mystery religions adopted many expressions from these domains: they spoke of the assembly (ekklesia) of the mystai; the voyage of life; the ship, the anchor, and the port of religion; and the wreath of the initiate; life was a stage and man the actor. The Christians took over the entire terminology; but many pagan words were strangely twisted in order to fit into the Christian world: the service of the state (leitourgia) became the ritual, or liturgy, of the church; the decree of the assembly and the opinions of the philosophers (dogma) became the fixed doctrine of Christianity; the correct opinion (orthe doxa) about things became orthodoxy.

    There are also great differences between Christianity and the mysteries. Mystery religions, as a rule, can be traced back to tribal origins, Christianity to a historical person. The holy stories of the mysteries were myths; the Gospels of the New Testament, however, relate historical events. The books that the mystery communities used in Roman times cannot possibly be compared to the New Testament. The essential features of Christianity were fixed once and for all in this book; the mystery doctrines, however, always remained in a much greater state of fluidity. The theology of the mysteries was developed to a far lesser degree than the Christian theology. There are no parallels in Christianity to the sexual rites in the Dionysiac and Isiac religion, with the exception of a few aberrant Gnostic communities. The cult of rulers in the manner of the imperial mysteries was impossible in Jewish and Christian worship. (see also Index: Dionysus)

    The mysteries declined quickly when the emperor Constantine raised Christianity to the status of the state religion. After a short period of toleration, the pagan religions were prohibited. The property of the pagan gods was confiscated, and the temples were destroyed. The precious metal used to coin Constantine's gold pieces was taken from heathen temple treasuries. To show the beginning of a new era, the capital of the empire was transferred to the new Christian city of Constantinople. The centres of pagan resistance were Rome, where the old aristocracy clung to the mysteries, and Alexandria, where the pagan Neoplatonist philosophers expounded the mystery doctrines. When Julian the Apostate, Roman emperor from AD 361 to 363, tried to reestablish pagan worship, he found allies at Rome and Alexandria. After his death, the pagan opposition to Christianity continued for one more generation. The Roman aristocrats multiplied their efforts to maintain the piety of the mysteries, and the pagan philosophers tried to refine their theology by oversubtle interpretations. In 391, however, the Sarapeum at Alexandria was demolished, and in 394 the opposition of the Roman aristocracy was crushed in battle at the Frigidus River (now called the Vipacco River in Italy and the Vipava in Slovenia). (see also Index: persecution, Roman religion)

    Only remnants of the mystery doctrines, amalgamated with Platonism, were transmitted by a few philosophers and individualists to the religious thinkers of the Byzantine Empire. The mystery religions exerted some influence on the thinkers of the Middle Ages and the philosophers of the Italian Renaissance.

    Copyright 1994-1999 Encyclopdia Britannica
    Theology.

    The creeds of the mystery religions were never worked out to the same extent that the Christian creeds were. Nevertheless, the doctrines of the mysteries may be called a theology. One of the central subjects in mystery writings was cosmogony--the theory of the origin or creation of the world. In the Hermetic treatises, in the Chaldean Oracles, and in the little known writings of Mithraism, the cosmogony was modelled after Plato's Timaeus, and it always dealt with the creation of the soul and with the soul's subsequent fate. (see also Index: creation myth)

    The theological doctrine of the soul and the myth about its celestial home, its fall, and its redemption were inseparable. The sequence is beautifully told in the "Hymn of the Soul," preserved in the Acts of Thomas, an apocryphal account of the journeys and death of the apostle. The hero of the hymn, who represents the soul of man, is born in the Eastern (the yonder) Kingdom; immediately after his birth, he is sent by his parents on a pilgrimage into the world with instructions to take a pearl from the mouth of a dragon in the sea. Instead of wearing his heavenly garment, he dresses in earthly clothes, eats earthly food, and forgets his task. Then his parents send a letter to rouse him. As soon as he has read the letter, he awakes and remembers his task, takes the pearl, and begins the homeward journey. On the way, his brother (the Redeemer) comes to accompany him and leads him back home to his father's palace in the east. This myth is a figurative representation of the theological doctrine of the soul's fall and its return to heaven.

    Many of the questions that were the subject of later Christian theological discussions were already eagerly debated in the mystery religions. In a Hermetic treatise, for example, the existence of God was proved from the evident order of the world. This argument, which had first been formulated by Zoroaster, a 7th-century Iranian prophet, was expressed in the form of questions: Who could have created the heavens and the stars, the sun and the moon, except God? Who could have made wind, water, fire, and earth (the elements), the seasons of the year, the crops, the animals, and man, except God?

    Passionate debates were held about the question of whether man was subject to blind fate. The Stoics (proponents of a Greek and Roman school of philosophy holding that men should be free from passion and calmly accept all occurrences as unavoidable) had adopted the doctrine that all events are determined by the stars. Thus, for many Greeks and Romans astrology became the only sensible method of studying man's life and fortune. But for others the idea that man could achieve nothing by his own will was frightening, and they wanted to be liberated from this fear; the mystery religions promised to liberate them. The theology of the mystery religions admitted that the stars ruled the world and especially that the planets had evil influences. But the highest god of the religion (for example, Sarapis in the Isis Mysteries) stood far above the stars and was their master. A man who decided to become a servant of this god stepped out of the circle of determination and entered into the sphere of liberty. The god could suspend determination, because he ruled over the stars; he could unravel the threads of the Moirai (the three spinners of fate); he could save his servant from illness and prolong his life, even against the will of fate. In the Isis Mysteries there was a theology of grace foreshadowing Christian doctrine. (see also Index: Stoicism)

    In many of the mystery cults, there was a marked tendency toward henotheism--the worship of one god without denying the existence of other gods. Thus, Isis was the essence of all pagan goddesses; Sarapis was the name uniting the gods Zeus, Pluto, Dionysus, Asclepius, Helios, and even the Jewish god YHWH (Yahweh). In the religion of Sol, an elaborate syncretistic theology was developed to show that all known gods of all nations were nothing but provisional names for the sun god.

    Copyright 1994-1999 Encyclopdia Britannica
  • seedy3
    seedy3

    a site with quite a few of the early writings is here:

    http://www.biblefacts.org/ecf/index.htm

    It is not quite complete as I see on the page they are suppose to be adding more eventually

    Seedy

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