What "Two Witness" Rule?

by Amazing 47 Replies latest jw friends

  • Perry
    Perry

    Page 164 (last paragraph) through Page 165 paragraphs 1 and 2

    "For a matter to be established as true, there must be two or three witnesses.

    Unless someone can provide any other material showing that accusations of molestation, rape etc was handled any differently; then the above seems to clearly indicate that there was just one policy at that time for all serious allegations. Furthermore, it seems that the Elders had, what amounted to a mandate from Brooklyn to sweep everything under the rug and keep it "in-house". Dontcha just love the second paragraph on page 165?

    "If the accused one who denies the charge is actually guilty, we may be sure that Jehovah knows, and in time the truth will become known to his people."

    Well folks, I think that we have just witnessed the first WT prophecy that has come true. Through the efforts of Silent Lambs, the truth has finally become known to Jehovahs people!

    Now, the question is, did Ray have in mind these types of allegations when he evidently wrote the policy? Personally, I doubt it. Everyone who has met the man seems to hold his character in high regard. His two books impressed me with their forthrightness and honesty. So, I tend to believe Ray.... mainly because I want to. At the very least I believe that he believes himself.

    So how is it that Ray could say it is a lie that someone said that he authored a policy that has harmed thousands of people? Simple, in his mind the policy simply was applied to situations that he never sat down and considered what the ramifications would be to them if it was. Does this mean that the other party who made the accusation about Ray lied? Well, no. They are technically right also.

    Instead of the information being considered calmly and methodically, some people got hot under the collar, jumped the gun, and started saying things they shouldn't have. Imagine Ray's position. He gets a call from Amazing, who although was no doubt discreet, was probably interpreted as, " hey bubba, did you author a policy that ruined the lives of thousands of people?" To which he replied, "Hell no. That is a lie!

    You can bet your last dollar that if I felt my conscience was clear, I would have said the same thing. Who would want to go down is history as the author of a policy that deliberately caused untold pain to abuse victims? I'd like to think that this application slipped by and is just more fall-out from the unscriptural policy of the entire Judicial Commmittee arrangement.

    Edited by - Perry on 13 October 2002 13:37:32

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Perry,

    Even if Ray laid claim to authoring any such policy, the fact is, no individual within the confines of this organization, can be blamed for any of it's rules or policies. By its very nature, it is an organization that amalgamates its writer's into one united stand. No individual ONE individual can dictate that much influence.

    Maybe in the days of Russell or Rutherford, but with advent of committee rule, the society took on the persona of a collective effort.

    So even intimating that any one individual is responsible for 'lives of thousands', is taking away from the groupthink these bastards have spent year's at perfecting.

    Danny

  • Perry
    Perry

    Good point about the "Group Think" Danny. Most mainstream religions are led by educated people who are well aware of group dynamics and how the phenomonon of "group think" can ruin and otherwise lively, growth oriented environment.

    The WT on the otherhand seems to be not only ignorant of this, but actively seeks to quash any individual thought. If it had been otherwise, they very well could have avoided the many tradgies the local elders inflicted on victims at the behest of ignorant and incompetent WT leadership.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi Amazing,

    IslandWoman and you have uncovered a serious inconsistency in WTS policy. From the scans of the 1972 and 1983-89 Organization books listed below, it is clear that serious wrongdoing involving personal matters that can result in disfellowshipping can be established on circumstantial evidence alone. However, from the scans of the two editions of the "elders manuals" it is clear that other types of serious wrongdoing require eyewitness testimony. One wonders why this inconsistency exists.

    From the 1972 book Organization for Kingdom-Preaching and Disciple-Making:



    Note the above title on page 156: " `IF YOUR BROTHER COMMITS A SIN AGAINST YOU' ". The words "against you" do not appear in Matthew 18 -- this is purely the Society's interpretation, which it makes so as to avoid having to take judicial matters before the entire congregation, as Matthew 18:17 states should be done.

    The point here is that the Society is stating directly in the above that Matthew 18 does not apply to serious wrongdoing that can be classed as "not of a personal nature", such as fornication, child abuse and so forth (cf. p. 157, para. 4). Thus, the Society cannot consistently claim that the "two witnesses" rule of Matthew 18 applies to the serious crime and sexual sin of child molestation.

    Now take a close look at what paragraph two on page 157 said: "Before ever you would initiate the procedure set out at Matthew 18:15-17, then, you should have definite proof that such a serious sin was indeed committed against you." Nothing in these pages says that the accuser needs to have eyewitnesses to the serious wrong, but only "definite proof". Indeed, paragraph one on page 158 discusses fraud and slander, which wrongdoings can be established by any number of means besides eyewitnesses. Even strong circumstantial evidence can be "definite proof" of such wrongdoing.

    Paragraph two on page 158 then discusses the reasons for taking along one or two others to act as eyewitnesses. It is desirable that they be eyewitnesses to the actual wrongdoing, but the main point is that they become eyewitnesses to the reaction of the accused, for later use by a judicial committee. Obviously, if the accused's guilt has been established by other means, then the function of the eyewitnesses here would be only to help establish his repentance, and thus whether he should be disfellowshipped. This is mentioned in paragraph three on page 158.

    A few pages later the book discusses wrongdoing that is aside from that discussed above, i.e., wrongdoing "not of a personal nature":


    Note that paragraph two on page 164 states clearly that in such cases, the "two witnesses" rule applies. Also note the absence of mention of Matthew 18.

    The 1983-1989 book Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry leaves out much of the information discussed in the 1972 book. It, too, states that "the offenses here discussed were limited in nature to such as could be settled between the individuals involved. This would not include such offenses as fornication ... that should be reported to the elders and handled by them." (p. 143). Here are the relevant pages:



    Conspicuous by its absence is any discussion of what type of evidence is acceptable to establish the guilt of the accused. If the accuser is unable to convince the accused of the wrongdoing, then he is to put it in the hands of the elders, who will then investigate. Then, if "it should become evident to the shepherds of the flock that the brother has indeed committed a serious sin against you and yet has been unwilling to repent and make appropriate amends, it may become necessary for the overseers to expel the unrepentant wrongdoer..." (pp. 144-5). The problem here is, if there were no eyewitnesses to the wrongdoing such that the steps given in Matthew 18 could be successfully applied, then the only evidence left would be circumstantial or of a solid nature that needed no eyewitnesses. Thus we can see the inconsistency of the reasoning the Society uses.

    I think that it is significant that the above material says absolutely nothing about the sort of evidence that is acceptable to a judicial committee in cases of fornication and so forth. Perhaps it is because a semblance of a discussion of such evidence was given in the 1981 version of the "Kingdom Ministry School Textbook" "Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock":


    There are a few statements alluding to establishing guilt:

    "Body of elders now determines whether accusation gives evidence of having substance." (p. 160)
    "Present witnesses, unless wrongdoer confesses." (p. 161)
    "Has accusation or charge been established?" (p. 161)
    "Depending on whether guilt established and repentance shown, determine whether reproof or disfellowshipping necessary." (p. 161)

    Here is the most substantial discussion (p. 163):

    "What should be done if there is only one witness to a serious sin?
    Witness should confront the accused to encourage him to confess.
    If there is no response, one or two elders can discuss the matter with the individual. If he denies it, leave matter in Jehovah's hands...
    If there is another witness to the same type of sin on the part of the accused person, this would be basis to convoke a judicial committee."

    It is obvious that by around 1981 to 1983, the Society did not want non-elders to know anything about the details of establishing serious wrongdoing.

    Here are the relevant scans from the 1991 version of the elders manual, "Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock":


    My comments above apply to all of this material. Once again, the key point is that in cases of serious wrongdoing by one person against another, such as fraud or slander, the Society's policy is that eyewitnesses to the actual wrongdoing are not required, whereas when the wrongdoing is of an impersonal nature (but how can molesting a child be termed "impersonal"?) the policy is that eyewitnesses are required.

    Clearly stated in the above is that two or more eyewitnesses to the same incident of wrongdoing are required to prove guilt, but "if there are two or three witnesses to the same kind of wrongdoing but each one is witness to a separate incident, their testimony can be considered", and "such evidence may be used to establish guilt" (p. 111). Thus the testimony of two or more witnesses to separate incidents does not prove guilt.

    Many thanks to IslandWoman for catching these inconsistencies!

    AlanF

    Edited by - AlanF on 13 October 2002 14:22:59

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Hi Amazing,

    I have emailed you jpgs of two pages from the 1971 "Aid" book on this subject.

    AlanF, if I may:

    "read through" is one name for the artifacts produced in photocopies or scanned images that show some of the printing on the reverse side of the page. Here is away to eliminate "read through" when you are photocopying or scanning pages - place a sheet of BLACK paper behind the page. This may be counter-intuitive, but it works. It will cause the white page to look a bit gray but this can be corrected by adjusting your photocopying or scanner controls. If you have a "gamma" control on your scanner, set the contrast curve so it looks like this "_/" starting from the bottom left side, flat then steeply climbing from about 1/4 of the way to the left of the midpont to 1/4 of the way to the right of the midpoint, then flat again at the top right side. I hope this gibberish is understandable.

    If I could get strike9 to allow me to upload my aid book scans, you'd be able to see how nicely this works. The scans are only 400K each, but strike9 won't take them. (grrrrr)

    Edited by - Nathan Natas on 13 October 2002 14:37:2

    Edited by - Nathan Natas on 13 October 2002 15:3:57

  • bluesapphire
    bluesapphire

    Alli, your points I believe hit the nail on the head. Obviously no two witnesses were available to witness the rape. Why doesn't the Watchtower Society do an about-face, apologize and change this stupid rule!

    PS: I know of people who were df'd for smoking pot at the mouth of only one witness, despite the individuals completely claiming innocense. They were df'd because ONE person said they saw it. Why is it that they stubbornly stick to this rule only when it comes to child molestation? There has to be something more to it. It just doesn't make any sense.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi Nathan Natas,

    Thanks for the advice. I don't have a gamma correction on my scanner, but I'll certainly try the black paper trick next time.

    AlanF

  • JanH
    JanH

    Thanks for all this material, and great investigative work, folks.

    Dungbeetle provided scans of the "org" and "lamp" books at her site here: http://community.webshots.com/user/wtdungbeetle

    - Jan


    Blogging at Secular Blasphemy
  • happy man
    happy man

    well one thing is clear, two wittneses are not always ask fore, i also now several cases when young peopel was dfd fore minor things, despite they deniy things. this is my point of wiue.

    Inn many congs there have be trubbel widh young peopel, and in this cases they have not be so accurate widh the evedense, the most important issu have be to show exampel, if you understand what I mean , they feel they must do something, and they think the young hide what they do, and not are hounest. this is a bigg diffrence from if some elder is accused fore terribel sexual abuse, if someone do this they defently want 2 wittneses, i myself think the youngsters have been hunted and take blame fore a lot of other bad things, they was the weekest part of the cong, and easyst to blame, and if they do they show the cong, look we are doing something.

    I am sad to say that I hacve seen this myself, ans i think it is a very easy way , and i also think it show how peopel are not so perfekt even if they ared in a judging position. but as the bibel say, they shall have an so much harder judgment on the DAY.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    JanH,

    Thanks for mentioning WEBSHOTS - it is better than strike9!

    Here's where you can view my scans of the 1971 "Aid To Bible Understanding"

    http://community.webshots.com/album/52361379pgbLej

    I wasn't able to get them to display here in readable size... and webshots did reduce the size of the jpgs so the quality is marginal. The original scans were about 800x1080 pixels and quite clear. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

    Edited by - Nathan Natas on 13 October 2002 16:29:24

    Edited by - Nathan Natas on 13 October 2002 16:34:56

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