What "Two Witness" Rule?

by Amazing 47 Replies latest jw friends

  • happy man
    happy man

    Inn the book from 1968 it say, it is not inaf widh one witneses, bibel demand us it must be 2or 3, if we have ony one wittneses no akt can be done, site 176.

    Inn the bok from 1972 like this:If something shall be abel to say this is the truhth we must have at least 2 or 3 wittneses, 1Tim 5:19. 5 Mos 19:15 .Hebr 10:28

    If we have ONLY ONE WITTNESES WE DO NOTHING,

    I must say i am a littel disturbd about this, i be an elder forom 1980 to 1999, and never we talk about this, this was not a bigg issu, I think this Pedofil issu have take us widh surprise, this biblel based rule didnt work in this case.

    And our belife that dont go to the wordley courts, is also only in smaler things as i understand it.

    this abuse things is very tricky thing, we must have some form of evedense, in Sweden the goverment fore just a few days ago chaandge this , they say, we can ot do anything if we dont have any form of evedense, this after some famus case where children was lying and later say they remeber wrong, it have cost the state a lot of money to pay out to this fadhers who was innocent, and be in jail fore more than two years. This show how comlicated this issu is, very happy to not be abny elder any more , who have to solved this things out.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Thanks Happyman: Your points about those accused wrongly and imprisoned is good, and does touch on this double-edged sword ... the need for caution on both sides is important ... thanks.

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    Hope this helps, the second paragraph of page 158 seems to be key.

  • blondie
    blondie

    Nicolau,

    Can you scan page 164 and 165 which shows the 2 to 3 witness rule but does not cite Matthew 18 but 1 Timothy 5:19, Deuteronomy 19:15 and Hebrews 10:28? Sure beats typing it.

  • Perry
    Perry

    In the 1999 edition of Chrisis of Conscience, page 79, Ray states, I was assigned chapters...Safeguarding the Cleanness of the Congregation; in the book, Organization for Kingdom-Preaching and Disciple-Making, 1972. It is here that this policy was laid out as church procedure. Ray went on to describe the publication as, a form of church manual setting out organizational structure and policy governing the entire arrangement, from the headquarters through to the branches, districts and circuits, and on to the congregations. The Governing Body was not asked to supply material for the book.

    The policy for ALL difficulties within the Christian congregation called for: minor problems to be dealt with between the two parties involved. Then a meeting was to be sought between the two parties with witnesses to the evidence. If that failed to produce reconciliation then the matter could be brought before the elders. The issue was not to be discussed with anyone not directly involved with or affected by the case. By contrast, all allegations of a serious nature were REQUIRED to be dealt with directly by the elders. The issue was not to be discussed with anyone not directly involved with or affected by the case.

    If he felt that a different policy should have been set out for Jehovahs Witness victims of rape, molestation, and domestic violence, he did not say that he said so then and he did not say so in any of his books from 1983 to 2002. Even after becoming aware, in early 2002 that thousands of individuals were coming forward to state how harmed they have been by the two-witness rule policy, reporting, confrontation with abuser, etc., he still did not come forth and clearly state his intentions regarding this policy.

    Did Ray truly never even broach the subject of molestation with anyone in over 40 years of full-time service as Jim Witney assures us he accurately quoted him as saying?

    Consider. In the WT, 1970 which was written while Ray was on the writing committee, it states,

    In the Christian congregation there are definite laws against adultery, incest,and other things, any of which, when committed by a Christian, would bring reproach from the world against the congregation. These things the Bible has put under the authority of the congregation, that is, it is required to take some action.. The congregation acts according to the authority given it by God to maintain the congregations good standing before God and to vindicate Gods righteousness before the world.

    Likewise, in the Watchtower of 2/1/75, while he was on the Governing Body, it states,

    Some of the penalties for incest are very heavy. And, for deliberately breaking the civil law regarding incest, a Christian would also come under discipline by the Christian congregation.

    So, in light of the above, it would appear that there was SOME policy SOMEWHERE set out to handle incest which is just another word for child molestation. So, naturally the question is begged; where was it set out then if not in the Organization Book of 1972 in the chapter, Safegarding the Cleanliness of the Congregation that Ray claims he authored?

    There is nothing during this time period that indicates there is ANY other arrangement for rape, molestation, or domestic violence victims. The same rules apply to all gross sin according to the information in this book, as well as every other piece of literature that came out of the Watchtowers headquarters during the time that Ray was there.

    Again, according to Jim Witney, Ray claims he did not support these policies and did not intend for these polices to be used the way they were concerning abused children. If this is true, he stood silently by for decades while they WERE used this way.

    This is not about morals, ethics, value systems, or defaming someones character; it is simply about the Watchtower organizational history. It is about accuracy in reporting, it is about diligence in research, it is about fairness in publication. It is about truth.

    I received the above basic document via e-mail immediately after you contacted Ray and wrote your take on the matter on another thread. The following represents my thoughts.

    This in no way diminishes the character of Ray or the great good he has done since leaving. I can see many ways that Ray could rationalize his thoughts in such a way so as to feel confident that he did not intend the policy to be used in any harmful way.

    In a large organization there are varying responsibilities many of which overlap and others that are outright shared by many others. The net result is that it is sometimes easy to spread blame or hard to determine culpability (especially about oneself), because there most likely may not be just one person to consider.

    If Ray had never personally implemented the policy in a molestation case, and did not consider the policy's effect on that kind of wrongdoing, I can see where he could technically disavow any knowledge of child molestation, even if it does smack a bit of self-deception. But realistically, who of us can say we have never done that?

    That was why I asked you the following questions in that thread:

    Amazing,

    Could it be that Ray was talking about never having opportunity to look at the issue in an official capacity? Perhaps he may have even more narrowly restricted his answer to apply to the short time that he was a GB member?

    I guess I was just curious about the context of the quote and if you felt it may have had a bearing on what he meant. You stated that you accurately reproduced his comments. I do not doubt this but simply wondered if an alternate interpretation could be meant in view of the context.

    Is it possible that the context of his reply could narrow the answer to simply mean it never came up for discussion while he was serving in some capacity so as to effect the policy's application or lack thereof?

    Edited by - Perry on 13 October 2002 11:0:53

    Edited by - Perry on 13 October 2002 11:6:36

    Edited by - Perry on 13 October 2002 11:29:7

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Researching the jw talmud-like policies and procedures is simply an exercise in futility. They apply the rules to suit thier needs. CO's, DO's, manipulating the words or intent, whenever the occassion arises.

    I remember judicial meetings, especially during the 'please step outside the library' while we (elder's) discuss your fate senario, wherein the three of us, could not come to a mutual understanding as regards wt speak. So any analysis of these documents really is fruitless.

    Although Ray may well have written certain articles and policy, the true weight of authority, the actual application of such writing's depend almost solely on the individual elder's trying to apply it.

    From my experience, thats like trying to get three chefs to agree on butter or margirine.

    Danny

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Fascinating info. I think the Organized book is on line - will go and check

  • gumby
    gumby

    Christian Congregation

    of Jehovah's Witnesses

    2528 Route 22 Phone (845) 306 1100

    TO ALL CONGREGATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES

    Dear Brothers:

    At Psalm 144:15 we read: "Happy is the people whose God is Jehovah!" We see tile truth­fulness of this inspired statement when we associate with our brothers and sisters al conventions, assemblies, and congregation meetings. We enjoy a warm atmosphere of peace while we benefit from tine spiritual encouragement from Jehovah and his organization. (Psalm 29:11) What a con­trast to those of the world who lack true spiritual guidance and a solid hope for the future! --Isaiah 65:13.

    What enables us to maintain our happy spirit? For one thing, we fear Jehovah and we deeply respect the admonition in His Word, including what the Bible says on sexual matters. (1 Corinthians 6:9,10; Hebrews 13:4) At first, it was not easy for some of us to bring our Lives info harmony with Jehovah's elevated standards. We had to make significant changes in our lifestyle before we could qualify for membership in Jehovah's clean, spirit-directed organization- Was it worth the effort? Absolutely! How happy we are to be living in harmony with God's righteous re­quirements!

    In recent weeks, the press in this country has focused attention on the way accusations of child abuse are handled by various religious organizations. Such reports may cause some sincere individuals to ask about the procedures followed by Jehovah's Witnesses, Therefore, we believe that it will be beneficial to review with you our Bible-based position, so that you will "know bow you ought to give an answer" to any who may inquire.-Colossians 4:6.

    Simply stated, we abhor the sexual abuse of children and will not protect any perpetrator of such repugnant acts from the consequences of his gross sin. (Romans 12:9) We expect the elders to investigate every allegation of chili abuse. Even one abused child is one too many. However, in evaluating the evidence, they must bear in mind the Bible's clear direction: "No single witness should rise up against a man respecting any error or any sin .... At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good." (Deuteronomy 19:15) Later, this requirement to consider testimony of two or three witnesses was confirmed by Jesus. (Mat­thew 18:16) Thus, although they investigate every allegation, the elders in not authorized by the Scriptures to take congregational action unless there is a confession or there are two credible wit­nesses, However, if two persons are witnesses to separate incidents of the same kind of wrongdo­ing, their testimony eon be deemed sufficient to take action:--l Timothy 5:19, 24, 25.

    What if someone is a proven child molester? The article "Let Us Abhor What is Wicked!" published in the , issue of The Watchtower had this to say on page 29: "For the pro­tection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation. Moreover, lie cannot be a pioneer or serve in any other special, full-time service." We take such decisive action because we are concerned with maintaining Bible standards and protecting our children. (1 Timothy 3:2, 9, 10) Everyone in the organization is ex-

    To All Congregations in the

    Page 2

    pected to meet the same requirements, namely, to be clean physically, mentally, morally, and spiri­tually.-- l Corinthians 7: 1; Ephesians 4:17-19; 1 Thessalonians 2:4.

    We have long instructed elders to report allegations of child abuse to the authorities where required by Law to do so, even where there is only one witness. (Romans 13:1) in any case, the el­ders know that if the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so.----Gala­tians 6:5.

    At least since 1981, articles have been published in our journals, The Watchtower and Awake!, with a view to educating Jehovah's people and the public on the need to protect children from child abuse. Besides the above-quoted article, there was the article. "Help For the Victims of Incest," which appeared in the , Watchtower. Awake! has featured such articles as "Your Child is in Danger!" "How Can We Protect Our Children?." and "Prevention in the Home" (October 8, 1993) as well as "Child Molesting-Every Mother's Nightmare," in its January 22. 1985 issue.

    We believe that we have a strong, Bible-based policy on child abuse. Over the years, as we have noted areas where our policy could be strengthened, we have not hesitated to follow through. At Kingdom Ministry Schools the elders receive ongoing reminders regarding this policy and related matters. And we continue to urge the elders to follow closely the procedures that we have es­tablished.

    The moral cleanness of the congregation continues to be of vital concern to the "faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45) As we keep applying Scriptural principles in our lives, our hap­piness will increase. We trust that these reminders will be helpful to you as you share the Kingdom hope with right-hearted ones. We have much to look forward to in the way of spiritual refreshment as we attend the "Zealous Kingdom Proclaimers" District Conventions. What a happy prospect! Yes, there is no doubt about it: "Happy is the people whose God is Jehovah!"-Psalm 144:15.

    Your brothers,

    Christian Congregation

    of Jehovahs Witnesses

    Note to the presiding overseer: Please have this letter read at the first Service Meeting following its receipt. The letter should be read by one of the elders, All Scriptures that are cited but not quoted should be read.

    Edited by - gumby on 13 October 2002 11:39:17

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    *** We expect the elders to investigate every allegation of chili abuse***

    Well I like 'chili' and think the bastards ought to lay off investigating the peppers!

    BearPopper's

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Perry: Thanks for the comments. I am not, at the moment, reviewing this issue with Ray Franz in mind, though it could and likely will involve him ... You have asked the same question again regarding Ray acting in an 'official' capacity ... to be fair, I would have to ask him about his involvement in the Watchtower articles you cite ... what I want right now are the pages that Blondie asked Nicolaou to scan, or the find my copy of the older 1972 Organization book.

    I agree the issue is about truth ... I also received the same material you did, and frankly, I think it is a legalistic mess to try and tie such things together in the manner they have been treated, especially out of context, ignoring the purpose of some information ... I working on an essay and will post it in a few days ...

    Danny: I agree that much of this can be futile ... precisely because JW Elders often fail to follow procedure, partly because the procedures are not always clear, and partly because Elders are many times afraid to exercise their own conscience, or even use the general latitude the Society gives them. However, I am trying to get a handle on a specific historical timeline and the context of some information so I can put together an essay. PS: What is the date of the letter you just posted?
    LadyLee: If you find the older 1972 "Organization" book on line, please post the link, as this will save me time and improve my essay efforts ... thanks. - Jim

    Edited by - Amazing on 13 October 2002 11:59:49

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