A bit more for you before I will be gone for a few days. Now the topic is Christ and if we start up from the logic point, the Father is God. Jesus appears on the stage in the NT. From where? Luke 1:35 tells us that God "overshadowed" and a child was born. That is it. That is where we start off from.
I will comment some of the verses you bring up here;
Isaiah 42:8: I am Jehovah; that is My Name; and I will not give My Glory to another
This is supposed to be a proof text of Jesus being God. Of cause this speaks of Gods glory that he will always keep. Consider;
1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Does God ever give his "own glory" to Jesus? No, never. Just an example for you to consider.
Im tempted to discuss this verse with you too;
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Now does God not acknowledge other gods than him? Of cause he does;
Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. (.) 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
He even calls them his children. What is obscured by modern tradition is that to say something like there is only one god is the same as saying that there is only one strong being. Its an absurdity at face value from human point, but it makes sense comparetively and from Gods perspective it is true as none can match him. God is the Most High or the only "true God".
That is the way Scripture should be read, tongue in cheeck and finding the over all context and topic.
Another thing is the how many Lords/Gods issue. It was no problem for the Jews in the OT to have more than one Lord;
1 Kings 1:37 As the LORD hath been with my lord the king, even so be he with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord king David.
As God is considered higher than Lord, Paul says the following;
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
On a singel basis, God may also be called Lord and Jesus also be called God, although that is in fact very rare in the Bible. Lord is one you serve, God is a mighty being. I think it is ok to call them both both these titles.
You also list the following verses;
[Matthew 24:30: And then the Sign of the Son of Man will appear in the Heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man Coming on the clouds of Heaven with power and much Glory. (See Daniel 7:13)
Matthew 25:31: But when the Son of Man Comes in His Glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His Glory.]
To which I reply;
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Do you think this is a literal throne? Some throne then, both God, Jesus and all the saints will sit on it. No, of cause not, it is a symbol of power.
[WHO is the "Rock of Offense" and the "Stone of Stumbling"?
Isaiah 8:13: Yahweh of Hosts, Him shall you sanctify; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
Isaiah 8:14: He shall be for a Sanctuary; but for a Stone of Stumbling and for a Rock of Offense to both the houses of Israel, for a Gin and for a Snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
1st Peter 2:6: Because it is contained in Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Chief Cornerstone, Elect, Precious: He who believes in Him will not be disappointed."
1st Peter 2:7: For you therefore who believe is the honor, but for such as are disobedient, "The Stone which the builders rejected, Has become the Chief Cornerstone,"
1st Peter 2:8: and, "A Stone of Stumbling, and a Rock of Offense." For they stumble at the Word, being disobedient, whereunto also they were appointed.]
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
God is not a human being of flesh and bones, but the human being Jesus manifested God. He was one with him in Spirit. Thus they are both stumbling stones, they were both crucified, but only Jesus in a literal sense, God in a symbolic sense.
Last one for now;
[Joshua 5:13: And it happened, when Joshua was beside Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked. And, behold! A Man stood in front of him, and His drawn sword was in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, Are You for us, or for our foes?
Joshua 5:14: And He said, No, for I now come as the Commander of the Army of Jehovah. And Joshua fell on his face to the Earth and worshiped. And he said to Him, What does my Lord speak to His slave?
Joshua 5:15: And the Commander of the Army of Jehovah said to Joshua, Take your shoe off your foot, for the place on which you are standing is Holy. And Joshua did so.
Joshua 6:1: And Jericho was closed, and was shut in from the face of the sons of Israel; no one going out, and no one coming in.
Joshua 6:2: And Jehovah said to Joshua, See I have given Jericho and its king, mighty warriors, into your hand.]
1. There is nothing that proofs that 5:15 and 6:1 is the same conversation, 2. Angels are messengers, they speak on Gods behalf not themselves. A good example to bring this out of the world is Judges 6, verse 20 and onward where the angel of the LORD talks to Gideon and after he disappears, God continues to talk to Gideon. God does not need to speak through a visible angel in order to communicate with people.
Judges 6:20 And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so. 21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight. 22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. 23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die. 24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovahshalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
The Hebrew word used for worship in Joshua 5 is shacach. The excact same word is used here;
Genesis 23:7 And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself (shacach) to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.
So Abraham also worshipped these people if Joshua worshipped the angel, it is the same word. Dont mix translators inventions with what the Bible says.
Again, consider the worship of David;
1 Chronicles 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.
The distinction between bowing to and worshipping is an unbiblical concept.
Edited by - Anastasis on 12 October 2002 7:10:0