Only one "God" trinitarians?

by Anastasis 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Anastasis

    In the English language "God" is an odd alienated word. It is an anglican word that millions of people take to be the name of a specific god. But really, the Hebrew words Eloah/Elohim/El etc. means might, mighty one or mighty ones. So a human being can most certainly be God, ie. be mighty. A fine example is found in Ezekiel 31:11 where King Nebucadnezar is called God of the heathens by God himself. This is hidden by most translaters that renders it "mighty one" for once. But the Hebrew word here is "El" and that is the exact same word used in Isaiah 43:10 where "God" (well what can I do..? hard to change such a tradition) tells us that He is the only El aswell as the only Saviour in verse 11, which is perfectly true, Jesus needed to be saved and needed God (Heb. 5:7). Likewise Solomon is called God (mighty one) in Ps. 45:7 and Hezekiah Mighty God (rather brave/valiant mighty one) in Isa. 9:6. Angels are called Gods in Ps. 8:5 (compare to Heb. 2:7).

    Being mighty is really something very difficult to measure. To an ancient person the argument of trinitarians arguing that there is only one God in all contexts, wouldnt put anything put a smile on his face. The problem is made by mens tradition and theology, not by the Bible that always require of its readers to study it hard and be careful what to conclude. We humans accept a human being is mighty and so much more is a heavenly angel, yet he is not to God. YHWH is the supreme God, he is also the only "real/true" God. That is the exact point of Jesus in John 17:3 where He addresses God as the only true God. The only real powerful one or as David simply puts it in Ps. 36:9, God owns the source of Life. He has that power than made it possible for Him to give Jesus life in himself (John 5:26).

    Hope this solves the problem.

    God Bless

  • Gopher


    The points are all good. However in "discussing" the point with the trinitarian, you will always get a canned set of beliefs and counterpoints thrown your way. For example in your case, arguing that there are many called God, the trinitarian might ask you (as they asked me when I was a JW), "does that make you a polytheist, since you recognize many gods?" The answer is no, because only one God deserves worship and sacred service.

    Which then leads to the question about Hebrews 1 -- "doesn't it there say that all the angels should worship Jesus? And if they worship him, shouldn't we as mere humans do the same"?

    And on and on it goes.

    But yes there are many gods. Human judges were called gods in Psalms 83, and Jesus himself was called the "only begotten God" in John 1.

    Since Jesus was begotten, doesn't that mean he was created by the almightiest God, we would ask. Then the trinitarian would argue with you on the meaning of the word "begotten".

    And so it goes. You have opened a can of worms here.

  • Anastasis

    Hi Gopher,

    You are perfectly right.It is a good way to open the discussion though, as atleast 95% of the standard trinitarian arguments are no arguments at all. The issue of "worship" is another one. I remember a person that made a great point of the disciples worshipping Jesus on their knees and touching his feet until I showed that the same was done to Elijah or Elisa. Again, "worship" means something different today and milder words are used by the translators foristance when Abraham "kneels" before the men of a tribe.

    Jesus certainly manifested God but the whole trinity is based on the absurd claim they dont even know themselves, that God took on human flesh.

    God Bless

  • hooberus

    "God was manifest in the flesh, . . . " 1 Timothy 3:16 KJV

    ". . . the Word was God. . . . And the Word was made flesh, . . . " John 1:1-14

  • hooberus

    While informed trinitarians speak of there being only one true God by nature, we do acknowledge that other beings such as human judges are also called by the hebrew "elohim" such as in Psalm 82:6. However the use of "elohim" or similar hebrew words in these situations simply refer to their position above other men and not to their being the eternal, omnipotent, onmipresent, God, which the scriptures show only refers to one being . . .YHWH.

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    This is a very good Thread for Discussion!

    Thank You for Posting it!

    I also read your comments on the other Thread.

    First of all, let me just explain what my personal beliefs are about the Trinity:

    "Trinity" is just a word used to describe the belief in the Three Co-Equal, Co-Eternal Persons in Unity who hold the ONE Position, Nature, Being, and Essence of Almighty God YAHWEH.

    Trinity = Three-In-Unity.

    Every Christian who believes in the Trinity that I have known of, has believed that JESUS CHRIST, GOD THE SON, took on HUMAN FLESH, and He became 100% HUMAN and He also remained 100% SUPREME BEING -- in other words, He had a DUAL-NATURE of being Fully GOD and Fully MAN.

    Also, the Son is in subjection to the Will of the Father.

    That is also what I believe, based entirely on what I have read from the Scriptures.

    Also, I know that there are MANY so-called "gods" and "mighty ones".

    I also know that "God" is a TITLE, and that just because someone is called "God" does not mean they are the SUPREME BEING.

    However, Jesus being called "God" in the Bible is not the main reason why I believe that He is the SUPREME BEING.


    Isaiah 42:8: I am Jehovah; that is My Name; and I will not give My Glory to another


    John 5:16: And because of this, the Jews persecuted Jesus and lusted to kill Him, because He did these things on a Sabbath.
    John 5:17: But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
    John 5:18: Because of this, therefore, the Jews lusted the more to kill Him, for not only did He break the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal to God.
    John 5:19: Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything from Himself, except what He may see the Father doing; for whatever that One does, these things also the Son does likewise.
    John 5:20: For the Father loves the Son and shows to Him all things which He does. And He will show Him greater works than these in order that you may marvel.
    John 5:21: For even as the Father raises the dead, and gives life, so also the Son gives life to whomever He wills.
    John 5:22: For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
    John 5:23: so that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. The one not honoring the Son does not honor the Father who has sent Him.
    John 5:24: Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
    John 5:25: Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live.
    John 5:26: For even as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in Himself.
    John 5:27: And He also gave authority to Him to execute judgment, for He is the Son of Man.
    John 5:28: Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
    John 5:29: And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.
    John 5:30: I am able to do nothing from Myself; just as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, for I do not seek My will, but the will of the One sending Me, the Father.

    Remember the Scripture above said that YAHWEH/JEHOVAH would NOT give HIS GLORY to ANYONE ELSE:

    Matthew 19:28: And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, You who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His Glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

    Matthew 16:27: For the Son of Man is about to Come with His angels in the Glory of His Father. And then "He will give reward to each according to his practice." (See LXX-Psalm 61:13 and Proverbs 24:12 and MT-Psalm 62:12)

    Matthew 24:30: And then the Sign of the Son of Man will appear in the Heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man Coming on the clouds of Heaven with power and much Glory. (See Daniel 7:13)

    Matthew 25:31: But when the Son of Man Comes in His Glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His Glory.

    Luke 24:26: Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things, and to enter into His Glory?

    John 1:14: And the Word became Flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His Glory, Glory as of an Only Begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth.

    John 2:11: This beginning of the miraculous signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee. And it revealed His Glory, and His Disciples believed into Him.

    John 8:54: Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My Glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, whom you say is your God.

    John 17:5: And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself, with the Glory which I had with You before the existence of the world.

    Acts 4:10: let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that in the Name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in this Name this one stands before you whole.
    Acts 4:11: This One is the Stone counted worthless by you the builders, the One who has come to be into the Head of the Corner; (See Psalm 118:22)
    Acts 4:12: and there is salvation in no other one, for neither is there any other name under Heaven having been given among men by which we must be saved.

    2nd Peter 3:18: But grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. To Him be the Glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

    Prayers are supposed to be directed to THE SUPREME BEING. Humans are supposed to commit their spirits to THE SUPREME BEING:

    Psalm 31:5: Into Your hand I commit My spirit; You have redeemed Me, O Jehovah, God of Truth.

    Jesus Christ was PRAYED TO, and Christians committed their spirits to JESUS:

    Acts 7:55: But being full of the Holy Spirit, looking intently into the Heaven, he saw the Glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right of God.
    Acts 7:56: And he said, Behold, I see the Heavens having been opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right of God!
    Acts 7:57: And crying out with a loud voice, they held their ears and rushed on him with one passion.
    Acts 7:58: And throwing him outside the city, they stoned him. And the witnesses put off their garments at the feet of a young man called Saul.
    Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
    Acts 7:60: And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep.

    2nd Corinthians 12:8: Beyond this I entreated the Lord three times, that it depart from me.
    2nd Corinthians 12:9: And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness. Therefore, I will rather gladly boast in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may overshadow me.
    2nd Corinthians 12:10: Because of this, I am pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in dire needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for the sake of Christ. For when I may be weak, then I am powerful.

    Revelation 22:20: The One testifying these things says, Yes, I am Coming quickly. Amen. Yes, Come, Lord Jesus!
    Revelation 22:21: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen.

    Acts 2:21: "And it shall be that everyone who shall call on the Name of the Lord will be saved."

    Acts 9:14: And here he has authority from the Chief Priests to bind all the ones calling on Your Name.

    Acts 9:21: And all those hearing were amazed and said, Is this not the one destroying those who have called on this Name in Jerusalem, and he had come here for this, that binding them he might lead them before the Chief Priests?

    Acts 22:16: And now what do you intend? Rising up, be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the Name of the Lord.

    1st Corinthians 1:2: to the Assembly of God which is in Corinth, those having been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called-out Saints, with all those calling on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours

    1st Timothy 1:12: And I have thanks to Him empowering me, our Lord Jesus Christ, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the Ministry

    YAHWEH THE SUPREME BEING says that HE IS THE ONE who searches people's hearts and minds:

    Jeremiah 17:10: I, Jehovah, search the heart, I try the reins, even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.

    Psalm 139:23: Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me, and know my thoughts

    Jesus Christ is THE ONE who searches the hearts and minds of people:

    Revelation 2:23: ....and all the assemblies will know that I (Jesus) am the One searching the inner parts and hearts. And I will give to each of you according to your works.

    Acts 1:24: And having prayed, they said, You, Lord, Knower of all hearts, show which one You chose from these two,
    Acts 1:25: to take the share of this Ministry and Apostleship, from which Judas fell, to go to his own place.
    Acts 1:26: And they gave their lots. And the lot fell on Matthias; and he was numbered with the Eleven Apostles.

    In the Bible, YAHWEH THE SUPREME BEING says that HE IS THE ONLY ONE who is to be WORSHIPPED!

    Also, in the Bible, the HOLY ANGELS and CHRISTIANS always refused WORSHIP and "OBEISANCE" that was given to them:

    Exodus 20:2: I am Jehovah your God, who has brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
    Exodus 20:3: You shall not have any other gods before Me.

    Deuteronomy 6:13: You shall fear Jehovah your God, and you shall serve Him, and you shall swear by His name.
    Deuteronomy 6:14: You shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the peoples who are around you,
    Deuteronomy 6:15: for Jehovah your God is a jealous God in your midst, lest the anger of Jehovah your God burn against you, and He destroy you from off the face of the Earth.

    Matthew 4:10: Then Jesus said to him, Go, Satan! For it has been written: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve Him only."

    Acts 10:25: And as Peter was coming in, meeting him, Cornelius fell at his feet and worshiped.(or according the Watchtower's "Bible", Cornelius "did obeisance to Peter")
    Acts 10:26: But Peter lifted him up, saying, Stand up! I myself am also a man.

    Colossians 2:18: Let no one condemn you, delighting in humility and worship of the angels, pushing into things which he has not seen, being puffed up by the mind of his flesh without cause

    Revelation 19:10: And I fell before his feet to worship him, but he said to me, Behold! Stop! I am a fellow-slave of yours, and of your Brothers, having the Testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the Testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Revelation 22:8: And I, John, was the one seeing and hearing these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel showing me these things.
    Revelation 22:9: And he said to me, Behold! Stop! For I am your fellow-slave, and of your Brothers the Prophets, and of the ones keeping the Words of this Book. Do worship to God.


    Hebrews 1:6: And again, when He brought the First-Born into the world, He said, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."(Even the older New World Translation Bibles say "Worship" in this Scripture instead of "Obeisance".)

    Matthew 2:1: And when Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men arrived from the east to Jerusalem,
    Matthew 2:2: saying, Where is He born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.

    Matthew 2:11: And having come into the house, they saw the Child with His mother Mary. And falling down, they worshiped Him. And opening their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold and frankincense and myrrh.(The Watchtower's own "My Book of Bible Stories" says that the "Wise Men" WORSHIPED JESUS!)

    Joshua 5:13: And it happened, when Joshua was beside Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked. And, behold! A Man stood in front of him, and His drawn sword was in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, Are You for us, or for our foes?
    Joshua 5:14: And He said, No, for I now come as the Commander of the Army of Jehovah. And Joshua fell on his face to the Earth and worshiped. And he said to Him, What does my Lord speak to His slave?
    Joshua 5:15: And the Commander of the Army of Jehovah said to Joshua, Take your shoe off your foot, for the place on which you are standing is Holy. And Joshua did so.
    Joshua 6:1: And Jericho was closed, and was shut in from the face of the sons of Israel; no one going out, and no one coming in.
    Joshua 6:2: And Jehovah said to Joshua, See I have given Jericho and its king, mighty warriors, into your hand.

    Psalm 45:11: And the King will desire your beauty, for He is your Lord, and you shall worship Him.

    Psalm 45:17: I will make remembered Your Name in every generation and generation; on this account people shall thank You forever and ever.

    Matthew 14:25: But in the fourth watch of the night, Jesus went out to them, walking on the sea.
    Matthew 14:26: And seeing Him walking on the sea, the Disciples were troubled, saying, It is a phantom! And they cried out from the fear.
    Matthew 14:27: But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, Be comforted! I AM! Do not fear.
    Mat 14:28 And answering Him, Peter said, Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the waters.
    Matthew 14:29: And He said, Come! And going down from the boat, Peter walked on the waters to go to Jesus.
    Matthew 14:30: But seeing the wind strong, he was afraid, and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, Lord, save me!
    Matthew 14:31: And immediately stretching out the hand, Jesus took hold of him, and said to him, Little-Faith, why did you doubt?
    Matthew 14:32: And coming into the boat, the wind ceased.
    Matthew 14:33: And those in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, Truly, You are the Son of God.

    Revelation 5:8: And when He took the Scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having harps, and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the Saints.
    Revelation 5:9: And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy are You to receive the Scroll, and to open its Seals, because You were slain, and by Your Blood purchased us to God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
    Revelation 5:10: and made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign over the Earth.
    Revelation 5:11: And I saw, and I heard a sound of many angels around the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders, and their number was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
    Revelation 5:12: saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb having been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.
    Revelation 5:13: And every creature which is in Heaven, and in the Earth, and underneath the Earth, and the things that are on the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.
    Revelation 5:14: And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the twenty four elders fell down and worshiped the One living forever and ever.

    WHO is the "Rock of Offense" and the "Stone of Stumbling"?

    Isaiah 8:13: Yahweh of Hosts, Him shall you sanctify; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
    Isaiah 8:14: He shall be for a Sanctuary; but for a Stone of Stumbling and for a Rock of Offense to both the houses of Israel, for a Gin and for a Snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

    1st Peter 2:6: Because it is contained in Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Chief Cornerstone, Elect, Precious: He who believes in Him will not be disappointed."
    1st Peter 2:7: For you therefore who believe is the honor, but for such as are disobedient, "The Stone which the builders rejected, Has become the Chief Cornerstone,"
    1st Peter 2:8: and, "A Stone of Stumbling, and a Rock of Offense." For they stumble at the Word, being disobedient, whereunto also they were appointed.


    Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.
    Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.

    I hope I did not "spam Scriptures".

    Also, I am curious, who and what do you believe that Jesus Christ is?

    Same question for the Holy Spirit.

    I would love to see your comments on those Scriptures above.

    The Bible clearly shows that it is IDOLATRY to worship anyone or thing other than THE SUPREME BEING.

    The Bible clearly shows that Jesus Christ was worshipped.

    The Father even commands His angels to worship Jesus!

    Jesus said that everyone should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

    To me, from what I have read in the Scriptures, Jesus Christ is 100% MAN and 100% SUPREME BEING.

    The Father is my God, my Lord, my Savior, my King!

    Jesus Christ is my God, my Lord, my Savior, my King, my Redeemer, and my Mediator!

    The Holy Spirit is my God, my Lord, my Comforter, my Helper!

    Not three gods but Three Persons in Unity as ONE GOD.

    I would love to discuss this further with you, and I really do try to have a very open mind about the Scriptures, I am trying to be like the Noble Beroeans.

    In Christ, I send my Christian love to you!

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    Here is what Anastasis posted on the other Thread, and I am adding my Replies:


    First your verses from Revelations. First of all, let us eliminate the addition of "Alpha and Omega" in Rev. 1:11. Christ can be called all God is called, as he has become his namebearer (GIVEN the name above all Phil. 2:9), but we dont need to make up more than we have. Notice in 1:17-18 and 2:8 that Jesus is said to have been dead. God obviously can't die, nor can he be the firstborn of the dead (Col. 1:18). Christ was truly dead and shared Adamic condemnation as it said that dead had dominion over him (Rom. 6:9), made in all things like his brethern, that he could make the devil/sin powerless (Heb. 2:17).

    I agree, "Alpha and Omega" may well have been added in Revelation 1:11, we can eliminate that one.

    What about Revelation 1:7-8?

    You say that God obviously cannot die.
    Well, when Jesus Christ died, His spirit/soul left His Human Body and went to the Paradise location in Hades. Jesus was NEVER, at ANY TIME, "out of existence" as the Watchtower claims.

    God (or even an angel) adding a HUMAN NATURE to Himself is such a UNIQUE event, how do we know that God cannot die in His Human Nature?

    I know that God cannot EVER be "out of existence".

    Remaining problem may be Rev. 22:13, 16. God is certainly not the root and offspring of David.

    How do you know this? Where is the Scripture?

    Some see this as God speaking through Jesus' mouth just like God speaks through Jeremiah's mouth in Jeremiah 1:8-9 etc. Personally, I don't see why Jesus should be speaking in verse 13. Why would he present himself in verse 16 then and.. in that same chapter we also have John and an angel speaking. Clearly, in the Bible, it's not that important which temple God speaks through, he declares his will whether speaking to the mind of people or through prophets or angels.

    Well, I agree that God can use anyone He wants as His "spokesman". However, in the Scriptures I posted above, Jesus Christ is WAY MORE than a "Spokesman".

    Psalms 136:1-3, 1st Timothy 6:14-16, Revelation 17:14 and Revelation 19:16. I sense the problem here is that you once again assign a title to be a name.

    Ezekiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. (KJV)

    Ezekiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will bring upon Tyre Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and a company, and much people (ASV)

    It is up the translator whether he will put a "a" before a title. God surely calls Nebuchadrezzar king of kings as he also calls him God, because he was indeed a very mighty man. As we see from Phil. 2:9 Jesus can use all titles God holds, also titles greater than king of kings.

    So, who do you believe that Jesus Christ is?

    Jeremiah 23:5-6. A name once more. Look up a Jewish King called Jehu. That means "Jehovah is he". So that is not worth much for a trinitarian prooftext, but it gives light to Micah 5:4; "He will reign in the name of YHWH, his God".

    Okay, I agree with you on this one.

    I miss yoir point about Zecheriah 3:1-2 other than the fact that the angel voices the rebuke of Satan.

    I'm sorry, I should have highlighted the point I was trying to make.

    It seems to me, that in Zechariah 3:1-2, Jehovah is talking to another Jehovah, and telling Him to rebuke Satan. It appears there are TWO PERSONS called Jehovah in these Verses.

    John 1 may be a issue on its own. The word of God is often personified in the OT. Forinstance we have Isa. 55:11 where the Word of God comes out of God's mouth and carry out a task for him. God's word became flesh (verse 14), in Genesis 1 God creates by speaking. John 1 is a close personification of Jesus' divine work like "I am the life and resurrrection" (John 11:25). The Bible declares that Jesus was born in Bethelem and thus I don't find Jesus in existence in the OT.

    Now, there is a problem, if you are saying that Jesus did not exist before He was Born on Earth.

    Here are Scriptures which clearly show that Jesus existed BEFORE He was Born on Earth:

    John 8:58: Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM."

    John 17:5: Now, Father, glorify Me with Your own Self with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.

    Ephesians 3:9: and to make all men see what is the administration of the Mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;

    John 20:28 shows Thomas declaring Jesus to be his Lord and mighty one. He is after all the Son of God. The difficulty here of cause is that people take God to be a name, which it is not. However, none come to the Father without the mediator (1 Tim. 2:5) and then to Thomas, Jesus was surely in that moment as great as God, as he was God's temple. Again, context.

    Yahweh commanded that there shall be NO OTHER GODS before Him.

    I will comment more soon.

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 11 October 2002 3:42:51

  • Anastasis


    I will comment this oon.

    God Bless

    Edited by - Anastasis on 11 October 2002 3:34:47

  • Anastasis


    You are quit mistaken if you think God's people refuse to be bowed to/worshipped in the Bible. That happens a number of times, I can show you verses later. But context again, when forinstance God is in a vision, God is to be bowed to / worshipped. Notice that I say bowed to / worshipped. The difference is in fact man made, as the Bible uses the same words.

    God Bless

  • Anastasis

    Hi Undisfellowshipped,

    I will be gone for a few days. I only got time to post two things for you. One thing is the idea of only God can be "worshipped", which was a thing I stumbled over. The other thing is bit about who Jesus is.


    Worship of Elisha:

    2 Kings 4:37 Then she went in, and fell at his feet, and bowed herself (Hebrew word: Shachah) to the ground, and took up her son, and went out. (KJV)

    Worship of David:

    1 Chronicles 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down (Hebrew word: Qadad) their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king. (KJV)

    Worship of YHWH opposed to other gods:

    Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself (Hebrew word: Shachah) to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (KJV)

    Exodus 24:1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship (Hebrew word: Shachah) ye afar off. (KJV)

    SO once again, it is the translators that make the "trinitarian rules". Bowing to, worship is the same word in Hebrew (and in Greek - Proskuneo). To say that you are not allowed to bow to someone (Trinitarian "worship" falsehood) is just as absurd as to say that there is only one mighty one (Trinitarian "only one god" falsehood again "god" is a non biblical word, that everyone has just accepted to use). Context explains the real meaning, not the translators opinion. You will find that most of the trinitarian arguments build on modern day words. Forinstance "honour the Son as you honour the Father". He never says so. He says they shall both be honoured. That is something very different. Nor does Jesus ever say that we should pray to him, but he receives prayers - a difference some easily go wrong of. Prayers of the saints go through Jesus to God. Again, the trinitarian reasoning falls short, because Jesus instructs us to pray to the Father (Matt. 6). So we could go on, step by step revealing another agenda in the Bible than the trinitarian.


    We should always make our conclusions based on a rational study of the Bible. As I see it both "traditional christianity" and JWs fail to harmonize the two testaments. In the OT, God is one. In the NT, God is also one but he has a Son he loves. This Son was born in Betlehem. Not in "eternity" or "before the world was", but 2002 years ago. That is very simple. No Jesus or "God the Word" in the OT. Yet Jesus did "pre-exist" in some form in God's plan. His sacrifice was forordained before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20), it is God's will to reconcile all in Christ (Col. 1:20) and as God also loves Jesus, all was made through Jesus and for Jesus (Col. 1:15-16), although God always stays behind Jesus as his God (1 Cor. 15:27, Rev. 3:12). The loving relationship is very obscurely revealed in the OT. Again logic comes in, because why would God give details in the OT about a Son he did not have yet from our timeperspective?? Even more so as God knew Jeremiah before he was born (Jeremiah 1:4) as he has foreknowledge, he also knew Jesus (John 17:5). I might add that the addition to Eph. 3:9 " who created all things through Jesus Christ" is spurious, while "by whom he also made the ages/worlds" (Heb. 1:3) isn't and is to be explained like Col. 1:15-16.

    Jesus was a man of our nature (Heb. 2:17). That way he can declare in Rev. 1:18 that he was dead, death had simply dominion over him (Rom. 6:9) and now he is the firstbegotten of the dead (Rev. 1:5). He was annihilated but his flesh was kept fresh for him to be resurrected in (Acts 2:27). The Almighty (Rev. 1:8) is the one that gave Jesus this Revelation (1:1) and he never died.

    Concerning John 8:56-58, there are different ways to view that one. I think this is the most contextual;

    John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    First of all, let us remove the mystyfying "I am". It means what it says. The Greek eigo eimi carries no tense and so it could be rendered like the JWs render it too. Likewise in Exodus 3:14, why not render Hayah like they all do in Exodus 3:12 and the we get "I will become" instead of I am, as God hadn' t saved Israel yet at this point. The discussion in the verses from John 8 a day Jesus has that Abraham saw. What day I wonder? In Hebrews 11:13, 17 we see that the OT saints saw the promise "far off", ie. they were given the promise of life, but not the life itself Heb. 11:39, that will wait to Christ's 2nd coming. So from my perspective, the Pharisee misunderstands with or without purpose Jesus and believes he speaks of his own existence, while he in fact speaks of his day as the promise, the life and resurrection (John 11:25). So we can replace literal Jesus with symbolic Jesus in John 8:58 and thus we get that Jesus was before Abraham, as HIS SACRIFICE was forordained before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:19-20).

    God Bless

    Edited by - Anastasis on 11 October 2002 18:56:37

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