help, i need info for trial

by needs_lots 20 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

needs_lots

Hello everyone,
I need to know where abouts in the jw books does it say that you must obey your elders, and that if you don't listen, you can be disfellowshipped. At the trial on friday, the head of bethel said that no one in the organization could be disfellowshipped for not following elders commands. I know its written somewhere, and I have only today and tomorrow to find it. THey said that i could have refused to go to the judicial hearing of my father if thats what I choose to do. I know thats a lie. THey said that they would have done nothing to me had I not attended. Please, I need everyones help on this. thanks,
Trial should be done monday. I believe all the major news stations will be there to hear final statements. I hope the judge can see through their lies. It made me sick to think that they swore on the bible to tell the truth, and yet all lies came from their mouths, and they call themselves Christians!
abbagail

Hi needs! I would say your best bet for quickly getting the info you need would be to contact QUOTES. His email is: [email protected]
His website is here, I'm sure you know about him already, he's in Canada: http://Quotes.JehovahsWitnesses.com/
I don't think the society ever flat-out wrote that we MUST obey elders, etc. But the STRONG IMPLICATION WAS ALWAYS THERE in the way the articles were worded, implying that if we DID NOT do as they say, we would be "disobeying JEHOVAH and/or the Faithful & Discreet Slave" and/or "bringing REPROACH on Jehovah himself!" thereby inducing SHAME and/or GUILT ini us if we did not just "go along with whatever they say" and "follow along quietly" like sheep, keeping our mouths shut. Know what I mean? THAT is how they retained "control" for so long, by CONFUSING our minds and souls into thinking the ORG-FDS-Elders/CO/DO were all PUT IN THEIR PLACE by Jehovah HIMSELF, and if we do not do as they say, we are DISOBEYING (not mere men) but Jehovah HIMSELF. It's part of the brainwashing guilt-trip.
I am hoping QUOTES can help you since he's got the most comprehensive list of WT QUOTES anywhere and on all subjects. I'll send him a quick email with the link to this thread. Maybe he'll have some ideas on the top of his head.
Much success on Monday!!!!!
Thanks for taking a stand and speaking up publicly like you have done!
{{{{{HUG}}}}}
Grits
expatbrit

Vicki:
I will do some research on the Watchtower CD and post what I find on this thread either late tonight or early tomorrow afternoon.
I think it is as Grits has said. Here are some initial thoughts:
First, the Societies position on disfellowshipping is that a person is df'd for being unrepentant. It should not be too difficult to get a Watchtower witness to agree that this is correct.
Second, how is a person judged as being unrepentant? By not following the elders directions.
Thus, the difference is semantics only, but the WT will deny that a person will be df'd for not following elders directions. In questioning them therefore, it is necessary to include that extra link of reasoning.
For example, if a person is caught smoking, the judicial committe will not generally not df them if they show repentance. If they are judged as not showing repentance, they will be df'd. How do they show repentance? By obeying the elders directions to stop smoking. If they do not obey those directions, they are showing themselves unrepentant and will be df'd.
This is the approach I think needs to be taken to demonstrate your point.
I will try and find quotes to back this up and post them later.
Keep the chin up!
Expatbrit
outnfree

Vicki,
Try the 6/1/99 WT -- two study articles on "Gifts in Men". The second article particularly talks about how we should 'Be Obedient and Be Submissive'.
10 When we receive a gift, it is only fitting to express appreciation. "Show yourselves thankful," says Colossians 3:15. What, then, about the "gifts in men," the precious gift that Jehovah has given us? Of course, we are primarily thankful to Jehovah, the generous Gift-Giver. But what about the "gifts in men" themselves? How can we show that we appreciate them?
11 We can demonstrate our appreciation for the "gifts in men" by being quick to heed their Bible-based counsel and decisions. The Bible advises us: "Be obedient to thos who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you." (Hebrews 13:17) Notice that we must not only "be obedient" but also "be submissive" to those taking the lead. The Greek word for "be submissive" literally means "be you yielding under." Commenting on the expressions "be obedient" and "be submissive," Bible scholar R.C.H. Lenski says: "One who obeys when one arees with what he is told to do, is persuaded of its correctness and profitableness; one yields . . . when he has a contrary opinion." When we understand and agree with the direction of those taking lead, obedience may come readily. But what if we do not understand the reason behind a particular decision?
12 Here is where we may need to be submissive, or yielding. Why? For one thing, we need to trust that these spiritually qualified men have our best interests at heart. After all, they well know that they must render an account to Jehovah for the sheep committed to their care. (James 3:1) In addition, we do well to remember that we may not know all the confidential facts that led them to an informed decision. -- Proverbs 18:13.
13 What about being submissive when it comes to judicial decisions? Granted, this may not be easy, especially if a decision is made to disfellowship someone we love -- a relative or a close friend. Here again, it is best to yield to the judgment of the "gifts in men." They are in a position to be more objective than we can be, and they may know more of the facts. These brothers often agonize over such decisions; it is a sobering responsibility to 'judge for Jehovah.' (2 Chronicles 19:6) They make every effort to be merciful, for they are mindful that God is "ready to forgive." (Psalm 86:5) But they must also keep the congregation clean, and the Bible directs that they disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13) In many cases the wrongdoer himself accepts the decision. The discipline may be just what he needs to come to his senses. If we, his loved ones, are submissive when it comes to the decision, we may thereby be helping him to benefit from the discpline.--Hebrews 12:11.
_________
I recall another more recent article which said that we should obey the elders even if we're sure they're wrong, because Jehovah will take care of it. I'll try to find it later. Right now I have to go take pictures of my son & his homecoming date!
outnfree
garybuss

*** w86 7/1 18-19 Living for God's Will-Today and Forever ***

HOW do you react to the idea of letting your life be controlled by God? Many today find repugnant the very idea of submitting to someone elses will. Even in so-called stable societies there is a growing rebellion against authority. Riots, protests, disorder, and violence are the daily fare. Under stress the veneer of civilization turns out to be thin and brittle.2 Timothy 3:1-3.
2
In contrast, Jehovahs Witnesses show that they are living for Gods will by their faithfulness, for example, in their house-to-house ministry. Yet, even within the Christian congregation, a spirit of independence has sometimes been manifested by a few. They may chafe at the discipline of the elders. A few show disrespect toward "the faithful and discreet slave" class and its Governing Body. (Matthew 24:45-47; Acts 15:2, 23) Therefore the questions arise: Why should I submit to Gods will? Why should m y life be controlled by God?
*** w97 1/1 29 Let Us Abhor What Is Wicked ***

Well-trained children learn to obey and honor their parents, the elders, and other adults. (Ephesians 6:1, 2; 1 Timothy 5:1, 2; Hebrews 13:7) It would be a shocking perversion if one of these authority figures were to misuse that childs innocent trust so as to seduce or force him or her to submit to sexual acts. Those who have been sexually molested in this way often struggle for years to overcome the resulting emotional trauma. Hence, a child molester is subject to severe congregational discipline and restrictions. It is not his status as an authority figure that should be of concern but, rather, the unblemished purity of the congregation.1 Corinthians 5:6; 2 Peter 3:14.
*** km 11/81 3 "Remember Those Who Are Taking the Lead" ***

1 Loyal and active supporters of Christianity highly prize the faithful work and zealous lead of the elders in the congregations. It is a pleasure to cooperate closely with them as they seek to advance Kingdom interests. We cannot help but reflect appreciatively on their exemplary service over the years and as a result, strive to imitate their faith, devotion, love and endurance. When we consider their earnest and industrious service, it should prompt an eagerness in us to obey and submit to those governing us who may be losing sleep over our souls. (2 Tim. 3:10, 11; Heb. 13:7, 17, Kingdom Interlinear Translation.) Ministerial servants, as they work closely under the supervision of the elders, may also serve as wholesome examples to others
*** w81 12/1 11 "Kingdom Loyalty"-What Does It Mean to You? ***

ChildrenBe cooperative and obey your parents and the elders in the congregation. Avoid all forms of bad conduct and filthy language. This is being loyal to your parents, to the congregation and to Jehovah. What is your goal in life? To develop good spiritual qualities? To share in the ministry regularly? To attend meetings regularly? To improve your relationship with Jehovah? To become a pioneer, a missionary, a Bethel worker? If these are your goals, you will be reflecting the training of loyal parents and proving yourself to be a loyal subject of Gods kingdom.
*** w88 9/15 29 Christians-Firm yet Flexible ***

Obedience to elders, husbands, parents, and employers should not be sidestepped in the name of flexibility.
*** w89 9/15 22 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead ***

Paul urges us to obey those governing us spiritually. We are to "be submissive," to yield to these undershepherds. Why? Because they are keeping watch over our souls, or lives dedicated to God. And how are they "keeping watch"? Here the present active indicative of the Greek verb agrupne'o literally means that the elders "are abstaining from sleep." This reminds us of the solitary shepherd who forgoes sleep to protect his flock from nighttime dangers. Elders sometimes spend sleepless nights in prayerful concern for Gods flock or in rendering spiritual aid to fellow believers. How much we should appreciate their faithful service! Surely, we do not want to be like the "ungodly men" of Judes day who disregarded lordship and spoke abusively of glorious ones, anointed Christian elders with God-given glory, or honor, conferred upon them.Jude 3, 4, 8.
9
Jehovah would be displeased if we failed to be obedient and submissive to Christian overseers. This would also prove burdensome to them and would harm us spiritually. If we were uncooperative, the elders might care for their duties with sighing, perhaps in a spirit of discouragement that could result in a loss of joy in our Christian activities. But our obedience and submissiveness promote godly conduct and strengthen our faith. The Lord is with the spirit we show, and joy flourishes in such a climate of cooperation, peace, and unity.2 Timothy 4:22; Psalm 133:1.
10
Our being obedient and submissive to congregation elders does not mean that we are men pleasers. That would be unscriptural, for first-century Christian slaves were told to obey their masters, "not with acts of eye-service, as men pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, with fear of Jehovah."
++++++++
Do any of these help? Just e-mail me if I can be of any help. gb
garybuss

You might want to read over the Pay Attention book
at http://home2.inet.tele.dk/carloc/unit5c1.htm
Starting at http://home2.inet.tele.dk/carloc/
Before Forming a Judicial Committee
A person who becomes a witness to a serious sin should
encourage the wrongdoer to report the matter to the elders.
He may encourage the wrongdoer to seek help from the
elders and confess; and if the wrongdoer does not do
so, the witness will then inform the elders. (w85 11/85 pp. 19-21)
If there is no response from the accused, two elders
should attempt to discuss the matter with him. If he
denies wrongdoing, so that it is only one brother's
word against another's, leave the matter in Jehovah's
hands. (1 Tim. 5:19, 24, 25)

However, having the witness confront the accused alone
may not be advisable in all cases.
For example:
When the witness is party to wrongdoing, such as
in cases of fornication or adultery.
118
When the witness is a victim of the wrongdoer as in
cases of incest or rape.
When the witness is extremely timid.
In such cases, or when other extenuating circumstances
exist, two elders may discuss the matter with the ac-
cused, or an elder may accompany the witness to dis-
cuss the matter with the accused.
Of course, if it is determined that a judicial committee
should be formed, the witness may need to testify at
the hearing if the accused denies wrongdoing.
If there is another witness to the same type of sin on the
part of the accused, this would be basis for forming a
judicial committee. (See Unit 5 (b), page 111.)
Judicial Committee Hearing Procedure
++++++
gb
outnfree

OK, here's the article I was referring to earlier. It demonstrates precisely how the elders are untouchables -- a mere publisher cannot correct an elder:
9/1/2000 WT - P. 12 under the subheading "Adopt a Waiting Attitude":
5 If we cultivate a mental attitude like that of Jesus, we will not lose the joy of Jehovah even if things do not always happen as and when we expect them to. The prophet Micah said: "As for me, it is for Jehovah that I shall keep on the lookout. I will show a waiting attitude for the God of my salvation." (Micah 7:7; Lamentations 3:21) We too can show a waiting attitude. How? In many ways. For one thing, we may feel that a brother in authority has acted in error and that an immediate correction is needed. A waiting attitude will allow us to consider, 'Was he really in error, or am I mistaken? If he was in error, could it be that Jehovah is allowing events to unfold because he feels that the individual will improve and that drastic corrective measures will be unnecessary?'
________
This made my blood boil when I read it. And I was still a Witness at the time. Not only are the elders not to be questioned, but it must be the publisher who is 'mistaken,' no matter what an elder has done. Oh, yeah, and don't forget Jehovah wants the elder to take as long as necessary to improve, otherwise He wouldn't permit the error to be perpetuated.... Sheesh!!!! This is precisely the attitude that permits a JC to slap a fellow elder who might be an adulterer or a pedophile on the wrist.
________
Further along in the same article:
10 A waiting attitude also helps us to avoid presumptuousness. Some who have become apostate were unwilling to wait. They may have felt that there was a need for adjustments, either in Bible understanding or in organizational matters. Yet, they failed to acknowledge that Jehovah's spirit moves the faithful and discreet slave to make adjustments in His due time, not when we may feel that this is needed. And any adjustments must be in harmony with Jehovah's will, not our personal ideas. ...
____________________________
I'm afraid I can't get my CD-rom to load properly, so I've just been doing this from memory.
I think Expat had it right when he said the questioning has to lead the WT witness into "how does one show repentance?" "by doing what the elders say." And that if one is not deemed sufficiently repentant, one IS disfellowshipped,
out
expatbrit

OK here we go. Important phrases are in red. My comments are highlighted.
*** w86 4/1 31 Questions From Readers *** Teaching dissident or divergent views is not compatible with true Christianity, as Paul makes clear at 1 Corinthians 1:10: I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. (New International Version) At Ephesians 4:3-6 he further stated that Christians should be earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons.
Was this unity to be achieved and maintained by each ones independently searching the Scriptures, coming to his own conclusions, and then teaching these? Not at all!
Note that this states that you cannot come to your own conclusions on matters. Such as whether or not to follow the elder's directions about judicial procedures, for example.

*** w89 9/15 21 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead *** 3 Since Christian undershepherds have been provided by the Great Shepherd, Jehovah God, how do you think he wants us to view them? Surely, God expects us to follow the Bible-based direction received through loving overseers under the supervision of the Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses. Then the Lord will be with the spirit we show, we will enjoy peace, and we will be upbuilt spiritually
Here it states that God expects us to do as the elders say. Thus if you disregard what they say, would you not be rebelling against God? (A disfellowshipping matter.)
*** w89 9/15 21 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead *** Especially might these spirit-anointed elders be viewed as spiritual governors, for Hebrews 13:7 can be rendered: Be you mindful of the ones governing . . . you.
*** w89 9/15 22 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead *** We are to be submissive, to yield to these undershepherds. Why? Because they are keeping watch over our souls, or lives dedicated to God.
*** w89 9/15 22 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead *** Surely, we do not want to be like the ungodly men of Judes day who disregarded lordship and spoke abusively of glorious ones, anointed Christian elders with God-given glory, or honor, conferred upon them.
Not following the elder's instructions will make us like "ungodly men". Again, a disfellowshipping matter.
*** w89 9/15 22 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead *** Jehovah would be displeased if we failed to be obedient and submissive to Christian overseers. This would also prove burdensome to them and would harm us spiritually. If we were uncooperative, the elders might care for their duties with sighing, perhaps in a spirit of discouragement that could result in a loss of joy in our Christian activities. But our obedience and submissiveness promote godly conduct and strengthen our faith.
Not obeying the elders displeases God. How are those who displease God to be treated?
*** w89 9/15 23 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead *** We will be helped to obey and honor those taking the lead if we remember that God himself has provided the elders. (Ephesians 4:7-13) Since these men are spirit appointed and Gods organization occupies a vital place in the lives of Jehovahs Witnesses, surely we want to demonstrate our gratitude and respect for theocratic arrangements.
*** w89 9/15 24 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead *** It is not easy to remain on the narrow road to life. To do so, we must follow the direction given in Gods Word and by those entrusted with shepherding responsibilities in his organization.
If you don't obey the elders you will lose your place on the road to life.
*** it-1 787-8 Expelling *** During the time of his earthly ministry, Jesus gave instructions as to the procedure to follow if a serious sin was committed against a person and yet the sin was of such a nature that, if properly settled, it did not need to involve the Jewish congregation. (Mt 18:15-17) He encouraged earnest effort to help the wrongdoer, while also safeguarding that congregation against persistent sinners. The only congregation of God in existence then was the congregation of Israel. Speaking to the congregation did not mean that the entire nation or even all the Jews in a given community sat in judgment on the offender. There were older men of the Jews that were charged with this responsibility. (Mt 5:22) Offenders who refused to listen even to these responsible ones were to be viewed just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector, association with whom was shunned by the Jews.Compare Ac 10:28.
OK this is a doozy. Someone who refuses to listen to the elders is to be viewed as a man of the nations i.e. disfellowshipped. Proviso: this is referring to the offender, but it does show that a person would be disfellowshipped for not listening to the elders.
*** km 8/85 3 Our Part in Showing Theocratic Submission *** 1 Theocratic submission is a key factor in the progress and spiritual advancement of a congregation. Paul emphasized this at Hebrews 13:17: Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account. This indicates that the spiritual well-being of the congregation as a whole, as well as of each one individually, depends upon our willingness to cooperate and work closely with the elders as they fulfill their responsibilities as shepherds of the flock.
*** w82 7/15 21 How Do You Guide Your Life? *** Some rules are specifically for the congregations good. For instance, in the past some Christians could speak in tongues. Paul directed that only two or three of them speak on an occasion, that they take turns, and that a translator be presentrules that promoted peace and order. (1 Corinthians 14:26-33) Similarly, the elders of a congregation today might provide directions about keeping Kingdom Hall exits clear, not saving seats needlessly, or parking vehicles with consideration for neighbors and safety. Such congregational rules are not unscriptural for they have the same purpose (peace and good order) as did Pauls advice about tongues. Related to this is the Biblical advice: Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you. (Hebrews 13:17) Since our avoiding sins such as lying or stealing involves obedience to God, this text must refer to our obeying the elders guidance in congregational matters.
Note that obeying the elders guidance is here directly linked to avoiding sin. The obvious inference being that ignoring their guidance is sinful.
expatbrit

Vicki:
I could find nowhere on the WT CD a direct quote saying that "if you refuse to meet with the elders you will be disfellowshipped." The WT are far too cunning to state such a thing plainly.
What you have do (or Mr Mark has to do if he's doing the questioning) is make the point that not obeying the elder's directions is tantamount to not obeying God, as shown by the above quotes. It is a sin. And those who rebel in this way will be dealt with judicially. And if they are unrepentant for their independent thinking, they will be disfellowshipped.
Expatbrit
expatbrit

Here are some quotes on independent thinking:
*** w83 1/15 22 Exposing the Devil's Subtle Designs *** How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by Gods visible organization.
OK, so you question (or worse, ignore) the counsel, you are guilty of independent thinking.
*** w83 1/15 27 Armed for the Fight Against Wicked Spirits *** Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make adjustments before, and so they argue: This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe. This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous?
Independent thinking is viewed as "dangerous".
*** w66 6/1 324 Intellectual Freedom or Captivity to the Christ? *** Today, too, there are those who, by their independent thinking, question Christs ability to have and use on the earth a specially appointed governing body of imperfect humans, to whom he has entrusted all the Kingdom interests or belongings on earth. (Matt. 24:45-47) When such independent thinkers receive counsel and direction based on the Bible, they incline to the thought, This is only from fleshly men, so it is up to me to decide whether to accept it or not.
On this very subject, E. A. Dunlap, Registrar of the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead, speaking to a class of missionary students, recently inquired: Do you look at it that way? Then he continued: If you do, then you are being infected by that spirit of independence with which Satan is infecting the whole world.
Independent thinking is not only viewed as dangerous, but Satanic.
*** w64 5/1 277-8 Building a Firm Foundation in Christ *** It is through the columns of The Watchtower that Jehovah provides direction and constant Scriptural counsel to his people, and it requires careful study and attention to details in order to apply this information, to get a full understanding of the principles involved, and to assure ourselves of right thinking on these matters. It is in this way that we are thoroughly able to grasp mentally with all the holy ones the fullness of our commission and of the preaching responsibility that Jehovah has placed on all Christians as footstep followers of his Son. Any other course would produce independent thinking and cause division.
Independent thinking is regarded as "causing divisions". Several child advocates have recently been disfellowshipped on this ground.
*** uw 10 1 Unity in Worship-What Should It Mean for You? *** So as not to mar that precious unity, we must avoid divisive influences. One of the foremost among these is the spirit of independence. Jehovah helps us to avoid it by unmasking its originator, Satan the Devil.

help, i need info for trial

Before Forming a Judicial Committee

Judicial Committee Hearing Procedure

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