To Amazing and Others re Iraq

by Defender 49 Replies latest jw friends

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  Defender

  In reply to your posts below, I thought a new post is merited.

  It is really outstanding the transformation of persons who were associated with JWs from neutral subjects to outright warmongers, especially those who used to profess brotherhood with Christ. While everyone is entitled to their opinions on matters of world politics, but to foster and promote bloodshed and destruction in the name of peace and pre-emptive defense runs jarringly against the grain of anything called Christian.

  I am sure you all know this but I bring it up on this board because it is intended to cover JW issues and related matters. While many of you x-JWs, after having been disappointed with WTS, have moved on in life to develop your own ideas and thoughts outside the box of the Wathctower. However bad some of JW teachings were, I still believe that those associated with political neutrality are not only biblically sound but secularly as well.

  Here is why;

  Many have been harping, with annoying repetition, on the issue that Saddam Hussein is developing weapons of mass destruction and that he had used in the past on his own people and that he is a threat to the region and world peace.

  Here are some facts; Saddam Hussein had used chemical weapons in his war with Iran under the approval eye of Western powers, even with the help of 60 US intelligence and military officers providing satellite and tactical support. The reason being that Iraqi army was on the verge of collapsing under the incessant attacks of Iranian waves after waves of advancing armies.

  Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons on his own Kurdish minority when Iran tried to use them in an uprising against iraq in an effort to break up the country. In short, Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons in mostly defensive maneuvers when his country and regime were in mortal danger.

  Contrast this with the usage of nuclear weapons, far more deadlier than chemical ones, on Japan the in WWII when the US was not in any mortal danger. The fact is Japan was desperate to end the war and even tried to elicit the help of the Soviet Union in order to mediate with the US. The US Government knew this all too well, but they refused to consider negotiated peace and wanted unconditional surrender from Japan. So the hundred of thousands of victims in and Nakazake did not suffer in order to safeguard the many, on the contrary, they suffered in order to safeguard ego and power. Furthermore, the US used chemical weapons in Vietnam, again when the US was not in any mortal danger.

  I have said the above not condoning Saddams use of chemical weapons nor the US of its weapons. As a matter of fact I do not condone the use of any type of weapon in any type of situation, but to illustrate the futility of the argument.

  Another argument is that Saddam is like Hitler.

  I once asked a person I was debating with in another board the question of what would have happened if Hitler invaded Europe and not a single bullet was fired in defense. Hitler would have overrun Europe and impose his will. How many would have died?

  We know that Hitler had plans to liquidate the Jews and other "undesirables" according to his twisted Arian race philosophies. So he reprehensibly murders 6 million people. But in order to safeguard the lives of many, WWII had to be fought ravaging an entire continent and killing more than 50 MILLION and wounding more than 100 MILLION people. If Europe did nothing in opposition to Hitler, maybe 6-15 million would have been killed, but when deciding to do something about it more than 50 million had to die. Even if Hitler managed to kill 50 million it would still be a zero sum game.

  I say the above not condoning the killing of a single human being but to show the futility of wars and the false arguments presented in fomenting them.

  Saddam Hussein is a reprehensible murderer and is no different from the many world leaders in the past and the present including those of the US .

  When Jesus Christ said that his kingdom is not of this world, thereby illustrating political neutrality, it made perfect sense and when he asked his disciples to pray for this kingdom to come knowing full well that the best way to safeguard our real lives and the lives of many is to follow in his footsteps.

  (Simon What is wrong with this board? When I pasted my article from Word Document, it mysteriously lost the names of the countries. Do you know why? Also having difficulties with spacing)

  Edited by - Defender on 6 September 2002 14:39:4

  Edited by - Defender on 6 September 2002 14:40:20
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  Farkel

  : In short, Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons in mostly defensive maneuvers when his country and regime were in mortal danger.

  Yeah? Tell that to all the dead Kurds he used it on, and explain how they were a "mortal" danger when it was he who first started murdering them and wanted to exercise mass-genocide on them.

  Farkel
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  Englishman

  It is really outstanding the transformation of persons who were associated with JWs from neutral subjects to outright warmongers, especially those who used to profess brotherhood with Christ .

  I think that what you are seeing here is Nationalism. It's quite a normal response following a life in the JW's when everyone was told that even the United Nations organisation was a tool of Satan.

  When people leave the witnesses, they often, quite naturally, start to give more support to their country of birth in order to replace the sense of belonging to something. I am trying to say that we all need a flag to march under, once we've forsaken dubbism, then we often need to replace it with something else. Whilst the loyalty might, at times, be misplaced, it can be very important to someone who is looking for something to follow. Leastways in the early years.

  Englishman.
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  expatbrit

  I once asked a person I was debating with in another board the question of what would have happened if Hitler invaded and not a single bullet was fired in defense. Hitler would have overrun and impose his will. How many would have died?

  We know that Hitler had plans to liquidate the Jews and other undesirables according to his twisted Arian race philosophies. So he reprehensibly murders 6 million people. But in order to safeguard the lives of many, WWII had to be fought ravaging an entire continent and killing more than 50 MILLION and wounding more than 100 MILLION people. If did nothing in opposition to Hitler, maybe 6-15 million would have been killed, but when deciding to do something about it more than 50 million had to die. Even if Hitler managed to kill 50 million it would still be a zero sum game.

  The vast majority of humanity did not meet the Nazi purity tests. Billions of people. Eventually the Nazis would have killed them all to meet their needs for lebensraum. They were planning a thousand year Reich, remember?

  And for the rest? An eternity of slavery to Nazism just because no-one resisted them because of some notional "zer-sum game" based on highly dubious assertions and numbers.

  World War II was fought to safeguard the lives and the liberty of those then living and all those to be born in the future.

  Expatbrit
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  Crazy151drinker

  So Defender,

  Basicly, your saying that we should have just kicked back and let 15 million Jews get BBQ'd so your own pansy ass would be safe. Thats real Christain like. Lets others die so I can be safe. Lets not Forget that HITLER also massacred the Handicapped, the Elderly, Political Enemies, oh and lets not forget that he allowed (and ecouraged) medical reproduction experiments on children and women so he could get his master race. Speaking of MASTER RACE. THEY ARE ALL WHITE. So for Hitler to have his MASTER RACE all non whites would have to be eliminated! HMMM I think that would have been a FAR LARGER number of people than the 50 Million who sacraficed their lives. WAKE UP.
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  Celtic

  A couple of minutes ago, I just finished writing and sending a letter to our local Member of Parliament, Candy Atherton MP for Labour warning her of the dangers of these pre-emptive strikes against Iraq and the need for convincing evidence first before rash action is taken.

  It's certainly a very complex issue, I am not denying that. Actually, I wouldn't compare Saddam Hussein to Hitler, that is almost too much of a compliment with his autocratic dictatorship, more like Stalinism if you ask me. However, to support the US at this time is rash on the part of the Labour Government without full convincing evidence being given to the British public first. Labour Government on this issue stands to lose much public confidence if the people are not entirely behind them. They need to think, weigh up the odds extremely carefully upon this poignant issue.

  Mark Price

  Community Action Network http://www.can-online.org.uk [email protected]

  edited to add, good points Englishman, yes, I'll agree with that too.

  Edited by - Celtic on 6 September 2002 14:47:52
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  Satanus

  What is amazing is how strong christians can come to extreme opposite conclusions about mass killing, known as war. Amazing and jeru are gung ho for the war. Jeru would like to personally, with his own hands, kill as many as possible. Defender, you see the christian message as calling for total pacifism. Two diametrically opposed ideas from the same book. Amazing.

  SS
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  Crazy151drinker

  Celtic,

  If we dont do it now, then we will never do it. Once Saddam gets nukes, thats it, game over. He can do what ever he wants and no one will do a thing about it for fear of nuclear war.
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  Celtic

  Crazy51Drinker

  Point taken, however, where IS the evidence? The British public to date, is not buying it, we want and expect evidence first, then maybe action, but certainly not before.

  Mark Price - Community Action Network
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  truthseeker1

  After Hitler got his 50 million undesirables liquidated, who would be next. There are large populations of non-arians out there like India and China. But lets let him do that too, because how many people would die if they tried to stop them.

  This is actually a sad part of the JW mindset. I don't love war, but it is a necessary evil. There will always be people out there trying to take control gain power over others lives. JWs seem to just bend over and take whatever is given to them. Sometimes you need to say NO and fight for what is right.