Bible History

by bitsnbobs 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  bitsnbobs

  Hi all,
  I left the Org in the late 90’s. Not because of beliefs or the 1914/generation fiasco. Just thoughtlessness, hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance. After a few months of inactivity – and very little concern from elders or “friends” – an ex-JW lent me CoC…and the rest is history! Reading the stories on here, I realise that in many ways I was quite lucky.

  Anyway, I have always been a bit of a history nut. Last year, I started looking at Bible history and archeology. I realised that once you remove the JW-spectacles, look at each Bible book individually and stop using the Bible as a proof text for your own wacky beliefs, it's actually a really interesting text.

  I totally understand a lot of people on here want nothing more to do with the Bible! But is there anyone who would like to discuss Bible history/archaeology/scholarship – particularly some of the key proof texts used by JWs?

  If anyone's interested (!) I could start with Genesis 3:15??

  
  
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  Village Idiot

  Welcome bitsbob. If you enjoyed Ray Franz's book Crisis of Conscience let me recommend his book In Search of Christian Freedom.

  I'm not much into Bible history but I would recommend Out of the Dessert? by William Stiebing. It's about the likely origins of the ancient Israelites.
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  FayeDunaway

  Aside from the 'woman' being interpreted as a symbolic God's heavenly organization, or whatever it is witnesses are saying now, Gen. 3:15 is an important verse for most Christians, as fortelling Jesus' coming and temporary death on the cross.
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  snare&racket

  Bits and bobs, may I suggest two great books.

  "WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?" and "THE LOST CHRISTIANITIES."

  You should start with the data, evidence, scholarly expert opinion and history FOR the bible, before critically appraising it's verses. You may save yourself a lot of time.

  
  
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  Crazyguy

  I have been studying the Bible it's history and what it's really all about for 4 years now. It interesting but also very disappointing to find out the truth about the Bible.
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  coalize

  Hello bitsnbob.

  You are totally right!

  Bible isn't the word of God, but it's a wonderful piece of human litterature. In fact, I find the texts a lot of time more interristing since I deleted all the fairy and sacred view on it, I was taught by JW since baby!

  And especially, i'm interrested in all kind of mythology and ancient history. Paradoxally that's too come from my robot-jw parents. Because my father was interrested by the egyptian civilisation.

  And one of the best book I never read about how the bible is "born" is this one : The Bible unearthed by Israel Finkelstein.

  
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  Diogenesister

  Theres a great documentary Isreal Finklestein has made too based on the bible unearthed. Just google it. These guys are basically saying there was no exodus and that thr caananites and Isrealites are one and the same. Obviously the right wing Isreali extremists do not like this, its a political hot potato to say the least. Please let us know what you know about genisis 3.15...
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  LorenzoSmithXVII

  One explanation out there:

  GENESIS 3:15 contain the pronouncements to two angels with respect to their future. The two angels are Michael the archangel/Jesus Christ and, obviously, Satan.

  To JESUS God said: "I shall put enmity between you and the woman [Satan] and between your seed and her seed.

  To Satan/The Woman: He [Michael] shall crush your head and you shall crush his heel."

  
  

  This is establishing the competition and eventual war between Christ and Satan and their respective followers in heaven, which is culminated in Revelation in the battle in heaven, where Satan and "her seed" comprising one-third of the angels are cast out of heaven. Satan appears as a "woman" here in Genesis because of his function in relation to Christ as a helper. Things in the Garden of Eden were patterned after Christ and Satan. The tree of Knowledge and Adam were patterned after the functioning husband, Jesus Christ. The Tree of Knowledge and Eve were patterned after Satan's position in heaven. So Genesis 3:15 is actually the divorce occurring between Satan and Christ. Christ's new bride, of course, is the "church", the 144,000. So in a technical sense, the 144,000 replace Satan with respect to being Christ's "woman."

  
  

  The WTS represents the woman as representing Jehovah's wife, I believe, which is incorrect, at least in this case. The fundamental message here is a conflict between two angels and their respective followers or offspring. The conflict is between Michael and Satan and Michael's angels and Satan's angels. In heaven, Satan functioned in the important role as Christ's companion and counterpart and thus "wife" or "woman." Once divorced, however, Christ takes up a new wife from the sainted people of the earth. So the 144,000 make up Jesus' second wife, replacing Satan.

  
  

  The concept of Satan being a woman, though, shows up interestingly in Jewish pagan folklore as Lillith, which in turn showed up in a lot of Christian artwork where Satan is depicted as a snake-woman. As usual, the WTS is completely clueless as to what the Bible is really teaching us.

  
  

  Below is the depiction by none other than Michaelangelo of "The Fall" where Satan is depicted as a snake-woman:

  
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  LorenzoSmithXVII

  BIBLE HISTORY: As far as Bible history and research, the rule of thumb is that any Jewish historian or archaeologist has a conflict of interest and so you must consider a hidden motive in their representations. The polemics between Christians and Jews is not dead, apparently, just because we have entered the information age and everybody is supposed to be so open and honest.

  So what is required is an open mind with respect to negative representations of Bible history, and a very aggressive knowledge of precisely what the Bible says. But that also applies to the JWs who also have their own agenda as far as Bible history since they are very much into Bible chronology and want the history and chronology of the Bible to work out with their dates, which, of course, they often do not.

  But, again, you just have to keep an open mind, though it is a fascinating topic. In general, though, JW dates are 67 years earlier than the secular history dates at the time of the Exodus (1513 vs 1446 BCE), and about 20 years earlier during the Neo-Babylonian Period (year 18 of Nebuchadnezzar = 607 BCE vs 587 BCE). The WTS uses the current timeline for dates from the return of the Jews from Babylon in 537 BCE to the end of the Persian Period, with the exception of a 10-year adjustment. JWs include a 10-year co-rulership between Darius I and Xerxes, allowing them to date the 20th of Artaxerxes to 455 BCE rather than 455 BCE. Then they extend the reign of Artaxerexes I from the traditional 41 years to 51 years so that they are back in sync with the secular timeline from that point on (i.e. 424 BCE, 51st vs 41st year of Artaxerxes I).
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  Lieu

  Lorenzo, me thinks you have that reversed.

  It's the woman's seed that crushes the head while the serpent's seed goes after the heels. The woman is not Satan, nor an analogy of him.

  He's talking to "the serpent" in verse 14, 15, (ie "thy & thou").

  Genesis 3:13-15 KJVS

  And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

  [14] And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: [15] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.