Can Non-Jehovah's Witness Resurrect?

by ApostleJon 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Double Edge

FunkyDerek:
YES it was! The message of the Messiah was overcoming death. The scriptures you quote are used to show how divisive the message would be to the people of Israel...either people would believe he was the Messiah, he fulfilled the prophecies and would bring everlasting life thru his ressurection, or they would reject him and hold on to the old law of Moses. He was making the point that this important 'choice' would effect even families in such a profound way that they would be at odds with each other.
funkyderek

OK, Double Edge, I can accept that the scripture I quoted doesn't necessarily prove that the Christian god wants families to be apart, as your interpretation is a plausible one, but where are the scriptures to support your claim?
Double Edge

FunkyDerek--
I'll respond to your last post on Monday...I'm just doing a quick check on the board and I'm off for the weekend..
Double Edge

FunkyDerek:
Sorry for the delay in replying, but a family member went into I.C.U. yesterday and things have been a little hectic. Now, getting back to your post:
I need to preface this with a couple of my thoughts and opinions. First, when I used to get in discussions with my JW friend, they would always ask "Where is that in the Bible"? which, for the the most part I would have to do some research. One day we were debating several things out of the Bible and each of us were coming back with seemingly contridictoring scriptures, when I just blurted out, "You know, when it comes to scriptures, if I have to pick and choose between what the Apostles said and what Christ said and did, I could care less what Peter and Paul's opinions were....I will always take the example of Christ. He accepted everyone and tried to show them the better way. He never shunned, and even carried on conversations with woman (a big no no back then). Of all the scriptures, his example and words are profoundly of more value and for me and superscede any others." Of course, typical of my JW friend, they went off not speaking to me for a couple of days, which I could never understand until I came to this board.
Secondly, one of my favorite scriptures is the last verse in the book of John - "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." For me, this is one of the biggest clues as to the "is the Bible true or not" issue...but that is for another post.
NOW, one of the major themes of the Bible undoubtably is FAMILY. From Adam and Eve, through the promises given to Abraham and his descendents....Issac, Jacob, and his 12 sons that would establish "Israel" , Ruth and her mother-in-law, David, Solomon, and even going beyond Joseph, Mary and Jesus...etc.,etc., etc. all proclaim FAMILY. (Heck, you could fall asleep just trying to read the geneologies with all the begatting.) Since another major theme of the Bible is that of the Messiah and his mission of the atonement, common sense would indicate that our eternal future and happiness wasn't meant to be spent alone, but with those that we love and those who walked this mortal plane with us.
I don't think I can point to a certain scripture and say it says here that "God is Pro-family and wants all of us to be together after this life"...but who's to say that wasn't said, seeing that we only have the 'tip' of the iceberg, so to speak, of what was said and done. I can point to an incident from the scriptures that is also one of my favorites that is very inciteful - I believe it is in Luke. It's the story of the Widow of Nain... Jesus was walking with His disciples outside of this city and crossing his path was a funeral procession. There is no indication that anyone even knew who He was. Reading the story you can feel the compassion He had as a distant observer for a mother and widow, as her only son was being carried to his final resting place. Witnessing this heart renching scene, and without even being asked, He went over and restored this young man's life to his mother. Every other miracle story the Savior is being asked to do this and do that - in this one he felt compelled to act out of total compassion.
I once told my JW friend, who wanted me to "prove" everything with scripture, "the Bible is a great way to begin to know about God, but it's only one source of revelation...it only teaches you 'intellectually'...other sources of revelation (prayer, life experience, etc) is where you begin to know God.
funkyderek

Double Edge,
I don't think I can point to a certain scripture and say it says here that "God is Pro-family and wants all of us to be together after this life"...but who's to say that wasn't said, seeing that we only have the 'tip' of the iceberg, so to speak, of what was said and done.
That's a copout. You can't find any scriptures to support your original assertion that:
God loves families and wants them to be together, not apart...that was the 'message' of the Redeemer and Saviour.
so you appeal to the possibility that it's true but wasn't recorded. The story of the Widow of Nain (Luke 7:11-17) tells us that Jesus had compassion for those who had lost loved family members, but that's all it tells us. Jesus could have used that incident to declare his purpose, if it was as you stated but he didn't. More telling of Jesus' purpose are Matthew 10:34-37 (quoted above), Luke 9:59-62 and Mark 3:31-35
Luke 9:59 Jesus said to another, "Follow me." But he replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 9:60 But Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God." 9:61 Yet another said, "I will follow you, Lord, but first let me say goodbye to my family." 9:62 Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."
Mark 3:31 Then Jesus' mother and his brothers came. Standing outside, they sent word to him, to summon him. 3:32 A crowd was sitting around him and they said to him, "Look, your mother and your brothers are outside looking for you." 3:33 He answered them and said, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"3:34 And looking at those who were sitting around him in a circle, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother."
Everything about these passages suggests that Jesus' message was not pro-family but that it involved the rejection of one's earthly family in favour of following Jesus. I'm sure you can put a different spin on those, but in the absence of scriptures to back up your claim, how did you arrive at your conclusion?
I once told my JW friend, who wanted me to "prove" everything with scripture, "the Bible is a great way to begin to know about God, but it's only one source of revelation...it only teaches you 'intellectually'...other sources of revelation (prayer, life experience, etc) is where you begin to know God.
So the Bible doesn't actually have the message you want it to have, so you infer a message through "other sources of revelation"? I can't argue on those terms for obvious reasons. If your argument is that Jesus preached a pro-family message but it was never written down and can only be divined through "prayer, life experience, etc" then you may very well be correct but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone but the most gullible people.
Edited by - funkyderek on 7 August 2002 7:19:2
Double Edge

FD
That's a copout. You can't find any scriptures to support your original assertion that:
God loves families and wants them to be together, not apart...that was the 'message' of the Redeemer and Saviour.
COPOUT??? Lame, FD, lame....
Let's keep this simple, for the spiritually challenged... my points:
One: There is no other book on the face of the earth that speaks more of FAMILY than the Bible, therefore, families ARE important to God;
Two: The message and mission of Jesus Christ was to redeem mankind from the fall (or the presence of God), to "SAVE" them from being alienated from Him throughout eternity by showing them a better way to live life and through His atoning sacrifice;
Three: The Bible is full of examples of Jesus' interaction with families...(Mary, Martha, Lazarus, the Wedding at Cana, etc. etc....the original question from the poster was if non-JW family members would be resurrected...my answer was YES...the Gospel of the JW's has nothing to do with the resurrection, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ does, and His Gospel is inclusive and is shown not only through his atonement, but with his interaction with FAMILIES. The old adage, "actions' speak louder than words" is abundantly true in the examples that Christ set regarding this subject.
Apparantly, some ex-JW's still NEED to be shown a scripture for EVERYTHING (how simplistic and anal is that)... so, here are a few where the importance of families is pointed out from the scriptures
Mark 5 18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, "Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you ."
Now He could have said: "Go your way and think about what I have done for you"...but he didn't , because not only was this miracle important to the man, but it played a major part in his family as well . What effects us individually, effects our family and vice versa, including the resurrection and eternal life.
Ephesians 3
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Part of "the riches of his glory" is overcoming death, the resurrection.
Families are important to God...the scriptures clearly show that the one of his greatest gifts -eternal life -is not meant for the individual alone, but for families so that our happiness can be complete.
Now you may disagree, but then again you don't believe in the Bible or God, right?...so the point is moot. (correct?)
gravedancer

Jesus never married so he won't be coming any time soon...and masturbation is not allowed ion heaven.
funkyderek

One: There is no other book on the face of the earth that speaks more of FAMILY than the Bible, therefore, families ARE important to God;

A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth is about 1400 pages long and entirely about family.
A search for the word "family" in the New International Version yielded 180 results.
A search for the word "hate" yielded 305 results.
A search for the word "sheep" yielded 202 results.
Two: The message and mission of Jesus Christ was to redeem mankind from the fall (or the presence of God), to "SAVE" them from being alienated from Him throughout eternity by showing them a better way to live life and through His atoning sacrifice;
That's debatable, but as it's completely irrelevant to the point we're discussing, I'm not sure why you included it.
Three: The Bible is full of examples of Jesus' interaction with families...(Mary, Martha, Lazarus, the Wedding at Cana, etc. etc....
Because people have families, and the family unit was very important in ancient Israel. It says nothing about Jesus' message
Apparantly, some ex-JW's still NEED to be shown a scripture for EVERYTHING (how simplistic and anal is that)...
It's not unreasonable, as the "scriptures" are the only record we have of Jesus' message (those of us who are not privy to divine revelation, that is). If you make a claim about what Jesus' message was, then surely you should be able to back it up with evidence.
Now He could have said: "Go your way and think about what I have done for you"...but he didn't , because not only was this miracle important to the man, but it played a major part in his family as well.What effects us individually, effects our family and vice versa, including the resurrection and eternal life.

How does that follow? It's a huge leap from Jesus telling someone to tell his family about a miracle to saying that that has anything to do with the resurrection and eternal life.
Ephesians 3:15 clearly has nothing to do with a literal family, I'm not sure why you included it.
Families are important to God...the scriptures clearly show that the one of his greatest gifts -eternal life -is not meant for the individual alone, but for families so that our happiness can be complete.
No, the scriptures don't clearly show that. I've quoted several scriptures which appear to show the opposite. The scriptures you quoted don't provide any real support for your claim. Now, call me "simplistic" and "anal" for asking for evidence, but which "scriptures clearly show" what you have claimed?
Now you may disagree, but then again you don't believe in the Bible or God, right?...so the point is moot. (correct?)
Pretty much. Whatever message the biblical character Jesus had, I still think death is the end of life; but if people are going to base their entire existence on what this character allegedly said or did, then they should know what the only existing records say about him. If you make false claims about that, I'm going to question them. (Or I may not, depending on my mood.)
Double Edge

Jesus never married so he won't be coming any time soon...and masturbation is not allowed ion heaven.

Thanks for the info Gravedancer... I'll have that engraved.
Double Edge

FD:
A search for the word "family" in the New International Version yielded 180 results.
A search for the word "hate" yielded 305 results.
A search for the word "sheep" yielded 202 results.

ok, I'll play...my turn:
A search for the word "father" in the New International Version yielded 1488 results.
A search for the word "mother" yielded 317 results
A search for the word "house/household" yielded 1212 results
A search for the word "love" yielded 710 results
A search for the word "ass" yielded 1240 results
D.E. - One: There is no other book on the face of the earth that speaks more of FAMILY than the Bible, therefore, families ARE important to God;
F.D. - A Suitable Boy boy Vikram Seth is about 1400 pages long and entirely about family
You are joking, right? You're talking pages, I'm speaking of theme - many, many families....totally apples and oranges...
DE -Now you may disagree, but then again you don't believe in the Bible or God, right?...so the point is moot. (correct?)
FD - Pretty much. Whatever message the biblical character Jesus had, I still think death is the end of life; but if people are going to base their entire existence on what this character allegedly said or did, then they should know what the only existing records say about him. If you make false claims about that, I'm going to question them. (Or I may not, depending on my mood.)

Now this is an honest statement and points out why we have two different opinions.
First of all, unlike some people who believe the entire Bible to be literal, I don't....heck, with dozens of books and writers that make up the compilation, for me that's not hard to understand. However, I do believe in God and I believe he wanted us to have a 'physical' evidence to His existence, a record, words, etc. so I do believe a lot of it is inspired (in other words, why throw out the baby with the bathwater reasoning)....He gave us the ability to figure out the 'treasures' from the 'dregs' .... BUT,
Secondly, I also think the Bible is duplicitous in that it's nature is both physical and spiritual. We have been talking about the physical part of the Bible, the books, the scriptures, the word count. that which is tangible and debateable on its surface. The spiritual side is a very personal one that comes from ones own experiences in proving that which has been written. Now, if someone's life experiences leads them to believe there is no God, then the Bible for them is 'fiction' . On the other hand, if ones experiences leads them to believe there is a God and they understand the 'spiritual' nature of the Bible, then for them there is 'truth'.
but if people are going to base their entire existence on what this character allegedly said or did
What Jesus said and did are very important to me, BUT, I hardly base my entire existence on them. A couple of months ago posted the following with regards to FAITH - and I will use it to make my point:
IMHO there are probably two scenerios:
1) if there's no God, thus no 'spiritual realm' everything is moot...you're right...Life sucks, we're screwed, get over it.
2) if there is a God, and man has a spirit and there is a spiritual realm, than the KNOWLEDGE of a 'physical' nature would be very hard pressed to prove something of a 'spiritual' nature. However, if this second scenerio is correct...than spirit speaking to spirit would be a KNOWLEDGE between the two, but almost unfathomable in a physical world. Try to explain an atom to a scientist in the 1870's. It's there, but can't be physically tested or proved at that time with the limited KNOWLEDGE.
It is impossible for any of us to walk in each other's shoes. Some people see the glass as half full, others see it as half empty, and still others don't see the glass at all.
(Edited again, because I keep messing up my edits!)
Edited by - Double Edge on 8 August 2002 20:37:45
Edited by - Double Edge on 8 August 2002 20:41:5
Edited by - Double Edge on 8 August 2002 20:57:54
Edited by - Double Edge on 8 August 2002 21:29:0

Can Non-Jehovah's Witness Resurrect?

Share this