Why do WOMEN remain Believers???

by JT 37 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  jesussaves

  Alright, JT. You forced my hand on this one. You know I HAD to respond. For as many negative biblical quotations of women that you mention I can pull a positive one. Let me preface this by saying that I DO NOT agree with the JW's treatment of women. If you recall my tumultuous committee meeting scandal with the Elder's son...well let's just say that the elders and their chauvinism can bite me.

  Here we go:

  Since I can only comment on Christianity and not any other religious structure, I'm going to focus on Jesus in relation to women and his ministry

  Jesus healed women indiscriminately

  Luke 13 10 Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, "Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity." 13 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God

  Jesus first revealed himself as the Messiah to a woman

  John 4 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
  25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."
  26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."
  
  
  This is my favorite passage about the compassion that Christ felt for women, especially in the face of injustice

  John 8 3Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught [2] in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded [3] us that such should be stoned. [4] But what do You say?" [5] 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear. [6]
  7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up [7] and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, [8] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, [9] "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? [10] Has no one condemned you?"
  11 She said, "No one, Lord."
  And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and [11] sin no more."

  Jesus makes sure his mother is cared for after his death

  John 19
  26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!"

  Jesus appears to a woman first after being resurrected

  John 20 Then they said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?"
  She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him."
  14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?"
  She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, "Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away."
  16 Jesus said to her, "Mary!"

  God's original purpose for marriage was perverted by the lusts of man

  Mark 10
  6 But from the beginning of the creation, God "made them male and female.' [1] 7 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh'; [2] so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.

  Man decided that they needed more than one wife...God didn't originate that.

  All that being said, I feel that a person can prove any cause that they want using the scriptures. If you want to talk women's rights you can pull out scriptures that demean women. Women in general are not referred to as 'whores' and 'harlots' in the bible. That statement is misleading. The women called whores and harlots were actually whores and harlots! All those references to virgins being surrendured to save men...well do the verses say 'The Lord say unto you: Sacrifice your virgins for the sake of a man.' Nope. The actions were not sanctioned or approved of by God.

  Really, the Old Testament outside of 'The Law of Moses' should be called 'How humans screw up when they don't listen to God'. How is it that God's perfect union of Marriage is perverted by horny men and then He takes the blame. The MEN of the bible often raped and mistreated women. No doubt. The GOD of the bible cherishes women and even refers to Isreal as his 'bride'. Christianity does not oppress women. Men do.

  My 10 cents.
• 

  The Alchemist

  I doubt if most people sit back and take an objective view of their lives. Most are too lazy or unaware of this option. Another question would be "why would JW women stay in it". Social pressure and a fear of the unknown is my guess. I a man could not did not want to imagine a world that wasn't the JW promised paradise and with it no death. So I stuck my head in the sand. Maybe JW women do the same.
• 

  Sirona

  Jan

  The popular stories about the ancient goddess-religions predating the partiarch religions lack all foundation in fact. It was a mystical feminist fantasy. All evidence suggests that almost universal oppression of women has been with us since the origin of humaity.

  I do not think that equality of sexes came before patriarchy, but I do think that there is some evidence for religions existing which elevated women to an equal, or higher status than men. Religions which had Goddesses aswell as Gods. I know you will ask for references, but I'm at work and I'd have to check my books at home.

  I recall that one of these books states that there have been significantly more Goddess images discovered than God images. A suggestion is made that since very primitive peoples were not aware that the man had a role in procreation, women were elevated to a higher status than men.

  You are right that Neo-Pagan faiths overemphasise the idea that ancient peoples believed in sexual equality. In Neo-Paganism, the woman is equal and sometimes is elevated above the man. I believe that Neo-Paganism grew in the latter part of the last century for this very reason.

  Personally, I don't mind what history says. I know that a Goddess figure has existed throughout most of human history and I enjoy being part of a religion that treats us as equal.

  Sirona
• 

  JanH

  Sirona,

  I do not think that equality of sexes came before patriarchy, but I do think that there is some evidence for religions existing which elevated women to an equal, or higher status than men. Religions which had Goddesses aswell as Gods. I know you will ask for references, but I'm at work and I'd have to check my books at home.

  Polytheistic religions typically had goddesses as well as gods, yes. That is very widely known. But I have to date never heard of any ancient religion that elevated women to the same or higher status as men.

  It is not even unusual that religions had a goddess as the supreme deity (e.g. Hellenistic mystery cults: Demeter and partly Isis). But just like England having a queen did not make it a place where women had close to equal rights, these religions were also dominated by men, and the societies in which they existed did not at all believe in gender equalty.

  I recall that one of these books states that there have been significantly more Goddess images discovered than God images. A suggestion is made that since very primitive peoples were not aware that the man had a role in procreation, women were elevated to a higher status than men.

  Yes, I am aware of this cute little idea. Even Mircea Eliade seemed to believe it. The whole idea is of course unsupported by any evidence, and I am astonished that intelligent people actually ever believed it. That any culture of human beings ever failed to see the connection between sex and childbirth is ludicruous.It does not take great analytic power to make the right connections from simply observing human sexuality. How exactly the baby leaves the female body would also be a huge hint for even the most 'primitive' mind.

  You are right that Neo-Pagan faiths overemphasise the idea that ancient peoples believed in sexual equality. In Neo-Paganism, the woman is equal and sometimes is elevated above the man. I believe that Neo-Paganism grew in the latter part of the last century for this very reason.

  Yes, it is a religion growing out of feminism. But their claim that this is a recreation of some ancient European religion which was even remotely similar is just pure nonsense. The feminist scholars who propagated this idea definately let their personal convictions overrun the actual evidence. Neolithic and Bronze Age Celtral European religions were mysogynist and violent, not unlike what came later. They placed no more emphasis on the "mother goddess" than Hellenistic mystery cults. These societies were also dominated by males, prominently in the role as warrior.

  Personally, I don't mind what history says. I know that a Goddess figure has existed throughout most of human history and I enjoy being part of a religion that treats us as equal.

  Sure, you can believe what you want. People have always done that, in face of evidence.

  I found an interesting summary of the criticism of "feminist anthropology" here: http://www.geocities.com/wicca_hoax/godcrit.html

  - Jan
• 

  The Alchemist

  So a belief in an ancient equal rights feminist religion or culture is nonscience simular to the Nazi belief in an ancient Aryan super race and a religion made up around it. Both phanton cultures never existed but were created to serve a modern day belief system.
• 

  Sirona

  Hi Jan

  I agree that neo-pagan faiths are most probably nothing like ancient paganism. The only way I can see similarities is in their polytheism (with a prominent Goddess and God figure) and in the observances of old pagan celebrations (Sabbats). The celebrations observed in neo-paganism are put together from what we do know about old practices. Summer and winter solstices, equinoxes, harvest festivals, etc. Reenacting various mythological stories is practiced, and it is suspected that was done by the ancients (the Mysteries). Also, like in Shamanism, altered states of awareness are induced by chanting / dancing / meditating. Divination is practiced. Like the Egyptians, many neo-pagans cast spells. I very much doubt that any ancient religion had all these aspects meshed into one, but most neo-pagans know that.

  You made some good points, especially the fact that we don't know that women were equal just because there is a mother goddess. I wonder what evidence you have that women were not equal in religions where there is a mother goddess?

  I don't really agree with you about the "how do women get pregnant" question though. I don't think they may have realised the male's role, since the whole pregnancy/birth thing was surrounded with superstition, mystery and magick. If we believe evolution, there must have been a time where mankind was more animalistic as far as sexuality, and births were met with wonder and awe. OK so I'm guessing, but I just think that your statement that they would know how it all works is a bit too black and white for my liking.

  I will check the link...

  Sirona
• 

  blondie

  I have always wondered too why women are more involved in religion than men whether it be the JWs or LDS or the Catholic Church.

  But then I have always wondered why women are more likely to stay with an physically abusive husband or boyfriend. Or why a husband or boyfriend is more likely to leave a female alcoholic than a woman will leave the male alcoholic (9 out of 10 men will leave, only 1 out 10 women).

  Women are also more drawn toward the helping professions like nursing, teaching, social work, etc. Religion fits into this category too, a helping profession.

  This may be conditioning from babyhood on. Women seem to be steered towards this area. What happens when a girl says she wants to be a truck driver or president? What happens when a boy says he wants to be a nurse? Boys that have a religious calling are not honored these days. Their masculinity can even be called into question. But it is still an honorable goal for a woman....why....I think because society views the woman's role to be a helping one, whether it be helping mom at home growing up, taking care of children in adulthood, and taking care of aged parents.

  My one cent's worth
• 

  Sirona

  Jan,

  Quoting from the article:

  The feminist/New Age "Idyllic Goddess" theory is not an intellectually-respectable
  hypothesis. It was invented by conjecturing far beyond what available facts will permit,
  guided by a political and sexual agenda, and "validated" by intuition. While a belief in a
  universal Goddess of the Neolithic was widely-held by scholars several decades ago,
  recent scholarly critiques have exposed serious difficulties with this view, and it is now
  quite discredited within academe. The overwhelming majority of anthropologists and
  archaeologists reject the late Prof. Gimbutas' interpretations and conjectures on "the
  Goddess"; however, most of them were reluctant to speak out too strongly, out of
  sympathy for their ailing colleague, and for her feminist goals.
  Yet in spite of its rejection by scholars, the Idyllic Goddess theory has found enormous
  support among certain segments of the general public, because it appeals to their
  preconceived beliefs. Like the "Afrocentric" history being promoted by certain professors
  of Black Studies, "Goddess-centric" history is motivated by politics, not scholarship, and
  grossly misrepresents history to promote a political goal. Gimbutas' Goddess theories, like
  those of Velikovsky and Von Daniken, are belief-systems which, while enjoying a cult-like
  popularity among certain groups of laymen, are rejected virtually in toto by scholars who
  have worked in the field. They are classic examples of pseudo-science.

  I agree with this. Strangely enough, I never believed that there was one peaceful goddess centred religion. I'd like to say that this article appears to suggest that "new age" movements ALL believe there was. I very much doubt that. Some people may believe that, but I never did.

  I believe that religions existed in which the Goddess played a prominent role. I do not think that the people were "peaceful" and I certainly don't think we can say that patriarchy was AFTER this. I do not blame patriarchy for all woes either! It seems that the woman being discussed in this article was ridiculously airy-fairy and certainly wasn't a 'scientist'.

  Sirona