Why do WOMEN remain Believers???

by JT 37 Replies latest jw friends

JT

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/women.html
the following is merely my opinion on the issue and while some may disagree and that is their right Im sure that there are those who will fully understand what I am talking about- (Aint it nice to be able to disagree and not be called Wicked smile)
Since leaving WT and looking back I have been often wondered and it has
often been discuss here on the net many times as to why certain groups are
attracted to the bible/religion/god. (For example Blacks and women, and there are others as well, but for the sake of argument in this thread I will at this time focus on women)
notice this comment: from--- SYN:

"This just highlights the reason why I can never understand a woman wanting to be a Christian. Probably the reason there are so many female Christians is the fact that 90% of them have never read their Bible from cover to cover twice in a short period of time and really thought about the things it says.
Besides, Christian women shouldn't complain if their man cheats, because lots of the great figures in the Bible were, like, SUPER POLYGAMOUS, dude."
Or this commment:
"It's threads like these that make me glad that I don't believe the bible is "inspired".
Andee

The reason why I bring this issue up is because of my wife, even though my wife was and "Elders" wife with all its "Priviledges"
this was one sticking point with her _ How females are viewed in relationship to men
Even a 13yr baptized male is given more respect than a 45yr exp in life female due to the concept of men are over women
So we used to discuss this at length and I tried to explain the ship and the captain routine and my wife would shoot that trash out of the water every time
And it always came down to WELL THIS IS JUST THE WAY GOD WANTS IT
Of COURSE SHE didnt buy it and I could see that trying to sell it was becoming more of a joke even for me
It has often been stated that those who are treated worst in life often look
toward something that promises them relief or comfort. I can't speak for a
woman, but i would say any book or a "Concept" --- like religion which has a long
history of making women 2nd second class is well documented. Almost all
major religions put women in a 2nd place role to some degree-
while many try to dress it up a bite or loosen the Grip ( why should there be a grip to start with is my question)
bottom line is usually the same. I found this link that looked at the concept of Man over woman from a "Bibical" standpoint
but you could have perhaps almost chosen any "Belief System" and got the same basic thrust:
##################
Why Women Need Freedom From Religion
Organized religion always has been and remains the greatest enemy of women's
rights. In the Christian-dominated Western world, two bible verses in
particular sum up the position of women:
"I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt
bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall
rule over thee."--Genesis 3:16
By this third chapter of Genesis, woman lost her rights, her standing--even
her identity, and motherhood became a God-inflicted curse degrading her
status in the world.
In the New Testament, the bible decrees:
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a
woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the
woman being deceived was in the transgression."--1 Tim. 2:11-14
One bible verse alone, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Exodus
22:18) is responsible for the death of tens of thousands, if not millions,
of women. Do women and those who care about them need further evidence of
the great harm of Christianity, predicated as it has been on these and
similar teachings about women?
Church writer Tertullian said "each of you women is an Eve . . . You are the
gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the forbidden tree; you are the first
deserter of the divine law."
Martin Luther decreed: "If a woman grows weary and at last dies from
childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing, she is there to do
it."
Such teachings prompted 19th-century feminist Elizabeth Cady Stanton to
write: "The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in
the way of woman's emancipation."
The various Christian churches fought tooth and nail against the advancement
of women, opposing everything from women's right to speak in public, to the
use of anesthesia in childbirth (since the bible says women must suffer in
childbirth) and woman's suffrage. Today the most organized and formidable
opponent of women's social, economic and sexual rights remains organized
religion. Religionists defeated the Equal Rights Amendment. Religious
fanatics and bullies are currently engaged in an outright war of terrorism
and harassment against women who have abortions and the medical staff which
serves them. Those seeking to challenge inequities and advance the status of
women today are fighting a massive coalition of fundamentalist Protestant
and Catholic churches and religious groups mobilized to fight women's
rights, gay rights, and secular government.
Why do women remain second-class citizens? Why is there a religion-fostered
war against women's rights? Because the bible is a handbook for the
subjugation of women. The bible establishes woman's inferior status, her
"uncleanliness," her transgressions, and God-ordained master/servant
relationship to man. Biblical women are possessions: fathers own them, sell
them into bondage, even sacrifice them. The bible sanctions rape during
wartime and in other contexts. Wives are subject to Mosaic-law sanctioned
"bedchecks" as brides, and male jealousy fits and no-notice divorce as
wives. The most typical biblical labels of women are "harlot" and "whore."
They are described as having evil, even satanic powers of allurement.
Contempt for women's bodies and reproductive capacity is a bedrock of the
bible. The few role models offered are stereotyped, conventional and
inadequate, with bible heroines admired for obedience and battle spirit.
Jesus scorns his own mother, refusing to bless her, and issues dire warnings
about the fate of pregnant and nursing women.
There are more than 200 bible verses that specifically belittle and demean
women. Here are just a few:
(See Woe To The Women: The Bible Tells Me So for a more comprehensive list)
Genesis 2:22 Woman created from Adam's rib
3:16 Woman cursed: maternity a sin, marriage a bondage
19:1-8 Rape virgins instead of male angels
Exodus 20:17 Insulting Tenth Commandment, considering a wife to be
property
21:7-11 Unfair rules for female servants, may be sex slaves
22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
38:8 Women may not enter tabernacle they must support
Leviticus 12:1-14 Women who have sons are unclean 7 days
12:4-7 Women who have daughters are unclean 14 days
15:19-23 Menstrual periods are unclean
19:20-22 If master has sex with engaged woman, she shall be scourged
Numbers 1:2 Poll of people only includes men
5:13-31 Barbaric adulteress test
31:16-35 "Virgins" listed as war booty
Deuteronomy 21:11-14 Rape manual
22:5 Abomination for women to wear men's garments, vice-versa
22:13-21 Barbaric virgin test
22:23-24 Woman raped in city, she & her rapist both stoned to death
22:28-29 Woman must marry her rapist
24:1 Men can divorce woman for "uncleanness," not vice-versa
25:11-12 If woman touches foe's penis, her hand shall be cut off
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah's nameless daughter sacrificed
19:22-29 Concubine sacrificed to rapist crowd to save man
I Kings 11:1-4 King Solomon had 700 wives & 300 concubines
Job 14:1-4 "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one . . ."
Proverbs 7:9-27 Evil women seduce men, send them to hell
11:22 One of numerous Proverbial putdowns
Isaiah 3:16-17 God scourges, rapes haughty women
Ezekiel 16:45 One of numerous obscene denunciations
Matthew 24:19 "[woe] to them that are with child"
Luke 2:22 Mary is unclean after birth of Jesus
I Corinthians 11:3-15 Man is head of woman; only man in God's image
14:34-35 Women keep in silence, learn only from husbands
Ephesians 5:22-33 "Wives, submit . . ."
Colossians 3:18 More "wives submit"
I Timothy 2:9 Women adorn selves in shamefacedness
2:11-14 Women learn in silence in all subjection; Eve was sinful, Adam
blameless
Why should women--and the men who honor women--respect and support religions
which preach women's submission, which make women's subjugation a
cornerstone of their theology?
When attempts are made to base laws on the bible, women must beware. The
constitutional principle of separation between church and state is the only
sure barrier standing between women and the bible.
######
I look forward to you all thoughts as to why
thanks
James
Fredhall

James,
You taking a lot of scriptures out of content. Women are very precious in Jehovah's eyes and mine too.. He always told his worshipers to watch over widows. And told husbands to treat their wives with deep respect.
seawolf

I think this is going to be a hot topic!
I'm in a rush and can't read your entire post right at this moment but I did read the beginning of it. I will read it all when I get back.
I'm the same way in that I can't understand why women want to be a part of all this religion stuff when it seems so detrimental to them.
I told my mother several months ago that I thought the only reason religion was created was to keep women in their place and at the mercy and command of the men. She thought about it for a few seconds and agreed.
It does seem like religion's grip on women (in western society?) might be slipping a little? maybe I'm wrong. dunno
edit: left out a couple of words
Edited by - seawolf on 29 July 2002 14:42:40
JT

While I thank you for your thoughts- it is clear that the bible has a double message
on one hand like you have pointed out women are spoken of in glowing terms but on the other hand women are viewed as not quite as good as men
take the test in Rev where it speaks of the "Anointed" have not DEFILED THEMSELVES WITH WOMEN
now come on you can dress it up all you want to, the bottom line is the "THOUGHT" IS somehow It is a Woman that would defile them
so whether you are in the first couple of chapters in the bible where a baby girl is being born the woman is 2twice as defiled for having a baby girl than having a baby boy or you are in the last book of the bible once again it is women who are dogged
so from Gen to Rev the message is the same- o yea they sprinkle a few women WHO KNEW THEIR PLACE- and they got some "Browny Points"
but not just bible believers ---almost all Major "Belief systems" that have billions of followers
the message is the same "Girl Friend you ain't good as a Man"
lauralisa

JT:
The quick answer to your question is women are led to believe that the 'headship' thing will work out exactly in real life the way it is interpreted and described in those scriptures about their 'heads' loving them JUST the way Jesus loved his disciples. Also, they are led to believe that if they don't submit to the organization's "arrangements" their butts will fry on A-day
Until a woman is forced to come to her senses (usually due to irrational events that hurt enough to piss her royally enough off) and realize that these mouth-pieces of god are power-abusing freaks, she does not feel the need to question the way things are.
Even a 13yr baptized male is given more respect than a 45yr exp in life female due to the concept of men are over women
I actually watched this happen: A lovely, gentle sister, on babysitting duty for five children one day, was applying sun-screen on all the kids before they went out in the blistering sun. She asked the 13 year old (baptised) nephew to put some on, as well. He wouldn't do it. She insisted. He refused. She insisted. He refused. Grown up sister, knowing damn well who was in charge here, cancels the outside thing.
This little event resulted in a family feud (all jws) which lasted ... well, maybe up until this day....? The credibility of all adults involved, the "qualifications" for the fathers (all elders/MS) were suspect, and in fact the family members (there were like 49 of them) all dispersed to whatever other congregations they could find and they were polarized irreparably.
JT, your posts are always read by me, I learn from them, and some of them have reduced me to tears... thank you for all you do
SYN

Yep, most of the Bible (ESPECIALLY the older bits) is a chauvinistic crock. It advocates the wholesale degradation, sale, and humiliation of these beautiful creatures that we men share our world with.
In fact, most of the Bible's teachings about women show absolute contempt for them, even though they are the only reason we are around today. All people are born by a woman - how can you deny this solid, inescapable fact?
While it would be rather silly to assume that men and women are equal, my personal view is that they are COMPLEMENTS - they fulfill each other. A man should treat a woman in exactly the same way he himself wants to be treated.
Sadly, the Bible has a different view. The ideal woman in the Bible is a humiliated, spineless shadow of a real woman. There is nothing more beautiful than a smart woman with a great personality to me - above and beyond looks.
Also, this sort of treatment of our precious ladies tends to place me immediately in FEMALE:PROTECT mode, as Abbadon would have put it.
Thanks for an excellent post, JT.
JT

Seawolf-
Excellent point, it is interesting that most folks will try to separate the Bible, Koran or other Holy book from the bone head men who feel this way, but that is the problem- the bone head men get the ideas, views, values and way of treating women from those very books-
Besides as with the muslium thier god allah watches as his female servants are treated like Sh%T and does nothing - and the same with the god of the bible, he too sits around the corner while billions of men feel they are taking thier marching orders from the "Divine book" and billions of females get THE SHAFT and he sit back chillin drinking "Lipton Iced Tea"
I listen to women here at work talk about they must listen to THIER HEAD - now ain't nothing wrong with listening to what someone says, BUT if what they are saying is foolish and a woman feels she must listen due to it being the Will Of God - then that is WACKED and there are millions of women who belong to Belief system who feel they must listen to thier crazy man or god will be upset
and the history of man has shown this to be the case for 1000'S OF YEARS
it is sorta like now that we are out of wt and we look at how so many of us were told not to go to college, save money, buy homes ,etc- well the first argument is often - well that was just that persons personal choice, but then when you stop and look at folks in all four corners of the earth WHO DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER are doing the same thing and making the same life decisions
then one must stop and ask WHAT DO ALL THESE FOLKS SHARE IN COMMON well we know the answer is wt yes as some say here on the net we all sucked from the "TITTS" of WT
and yes we got the same information from wt and it affect how we thoughts
so the question MUST BE ASKED how does billions of men come to the same conclusion for 1000's of years that they are over women and all the rest of the baggage that we see unless they are getting it from the same source THIER BELIEF SYSTEMS and the Manuals of those belief systems be it bible or koran or other "Divine guide"
JanH

JT,
Excellent points.
A related question: why do women stay with abusive men? A part of the answer is that they are convinced it is all their fault, and blame themselves.
Christianity is all about blaming the victim. "You are sinfull. You need forgiveness. You must repent." It convinces its followers that the beating they receive from their religion is their own fault.
It is true there exists denominations within Christianity where women are, at least in theory, totally equal to men. They have tried to humanize an old misogynist -- indeed, anti-human -- religion. A praiseworthy effort, perhaps, but what did Jesus say about new wine in old wineskins?
- Jan
Edited by - JanH on 29 July 2002 15:9:38
JT

Luara says:
The quick answer to your question is women are led to believe that the 'headship' thing will work out exactly in real life the way it is interpreted and described in those scriptures about their 'heads' loving them JUST the way Jesus loved his disciples. Also, they are led to believe that if they don't submit to the organization's "arrangements" their butts will fry on A-day
####
now this is deep for i too will agree on the surface the headship things sounds good on paper, but in the real world women get the shaft
I mean to say Hey lady you got a loving man who will cherish you and look out for you sounds so sweet, but the minute she opens here mouth in disagreement TOO MANY TIMES all of a sudden this Fool goes crazy-
I just feel it is such a dangerous thing WHENEVER a person firmly believes he or she got their position FROM GOD HIMSELF- I mean what are you to say, if a person invokes that God put them in Charge I mean for most folks what greater Authority can one appeal to after someone just told you that God left and put them in charge- smile
#####
JT, your posts are always read by me, I learn from them, and some of them have reduced me to tears... thank you for all you do
Well I didn't mean to do that , but to me the NET is such an important avenue for all of us to help each other move on with our lives feeling good about ourselves
regardless of whether you have been a jw for 2 yrs or 60yrs you life has been touched in a mannner that will never change in my view due to the fact that whatever time was spent in wt it affected our very fiber of being-
i know a bro who is a millionare- has a good biz selling "Mighty Auto parts"
doing well here in Washington dc has 15 + employees lives in nice home etc- but if he comes to realize this ain';t the truth despite the fact that he is well off he too would be PISSED
for this guy could be supplying Andrews air force base with all thier parts for the jeeps, etc
so he has lost out on so much biz due to wt rules and all of us have in one way or another
WT has Stunted THE GROWTH of every single person who has followed this belief system
from the GB down to the lowest hour publisher- ray franze put it best
the ORGANIZATION HAS BECOME A LIVING BREATHING SYSTEM THAT lives and feeds off itself-
if any jw regardless of their title is kicked out today they will for the most part be shafted by folks they have known in many case for 40+yrs
that is a dangerous system indeed
TheStar

Excellent points JT. I too always enjoy your posts.
This headship thing was one of the many problems that stirred in the back of my mind while a JW.
The man gets man respect when he earns it. If the man can't show me mutual respect, love and kindness, then don't expect me to be submissive and respectful damn it!

Why do WOMEN remain Believers???

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