JW response to 23,720

by ChristianObserver 23 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • ChristianObserver
    ChristianObserver

    Hello :o)

    Found this posted and thought it should be brought to the attention of members ........

    "From: Mattetria@aol.com
    Message-id: < [email protected]>


    I have since had a chance to look into this matter. The numbers are way off beam and appear to have been exaggerated by someone. In the USA apparently the society are required by law to document any reports of child abuse. This is why the list is kept. These records include allegations made on the basis of so called 'repressed memories' where it is very difficult for any authority to validate whether a crime has been committed or not. There are also names of persons who have been accused of abusing children before becoming witnesses, as well as individuals who have never been baptised witnesses but whose names they are obliged to keep because of their association with witnesses. For example this could include a non-witness father, step-father, uncle etc who is accused by his Witness children of abusing them. Also included on the list are those who have had underage sex, for example two consenting teenagers. Also all those who have been accused of voyeurism or looking at child pornography would be included on the list. Those who have been accused of child abuse would also be kept. The list would include many whose guilt or innocence has never been established, but the record would be of use if the person had a second accusation and could therefore help to protect children. However, the figure of 23,000 has no basis in fact and would appear to be of malicious origin."


    If anyone on here has AOL as their server and could possibly respond to the above on that board, you may access the message board by typing *The Faith* - in keyword;

    click Related Links;

    double click Christianity Messages;

    click Christianity message boards;

    click Topic Suggestions where the thread is entitled *Do Jehovah's Witnesses cover up child abuse*.

    The resident JW posters on that board often sway the opinion!

    Cheers! (Of the feeling that *I am fighting a losing battle over there* class!)

  • silentlambs
    silentlambs

    Hmmmmm

    Dosen't it seem odd the reply is nearly word for word the reply sent to Ms. Powys of the BBC? Could this possibly be WT misinformation? How could this person have access to the actual number in the database? If the number is so much lower they why does he not put it up to clear up the misconception? IF this person does have the actual figure would WT want him spreading it around on the internet? Would WT be better served to have someone spout the same misinformation that was delivered on the Panorama program? IF the number is sooo much lower, why not share it to clarify the matter?

    In the statements are found the lies, in the questions are found the truth.

    silentlambs

  • Valis
    Valis

    Bill, you know the answer to your own questions....If the WT revealed the number, that puts them one step closer to having to reveal names, places, and victims. Kind of hard to do when they won't even admit to having a problem to begin with. BTW, keep up the good work as I have seen the damage to one of the lambs you are currently working with and brother, let me tell you. It is one of the most saddening and disheartening things I have ever seen. Really makes one ill...Thanks again.

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • Dutchie
    Dutchie
    ............ the figure of 23,000 has no basis in fact and would appear to be of malicious origin."

    I agree Bill. This statement was obviously left by J.R. Brown. (hee,hee)

    So the poster is so sure of the figures and has had a chance to delve into this matter, why not post the actual numbers?

  • ItsJustlittleoldme
    ItsJustlittleoldme

    I don't have AOL, but let me give it a whirl:

    I have since had a chance to look into this matter. The numbers are way off beam and appear to have been exaggerated by someone.

    And how do you arrive at this conclusion?

    In the USA apparently the society are required by law to document any reports of child abuse. This is why the list is kept.

    Excellent, since the USA requires the list to be kept, I would assume there is no reason NOT to turn the list over to the authorites that are requiring the list, right? The society does report every incident on this master list, as the law requires, correct?

    These records include allegations made on the basis of so called 'repressed memories' where it is very difficult for any authority to validate whether a crime has been committed or not.

    Ok, but because YOU feel it is difficult to validate if a crime has been committed or not does NOT give you the right to keep Caesar from attempting the same, does it?

    There are also names of persons who have been accused of abusing children before becoming witnesses, as well as individuals who have never been baptised witnesses but whose names they are obliged to keep because of their association with witnesses.

    For example this could include a non-witness father, step-father, uncle etc who is accused by his Witness children of abusing them.

    Uh, wait a minute.. There is no way you have any jurisdiction at all over non-witnesses.. These people surely have been reported to the police, haven't they?

    Also included on the list are those who have had underage sex, for example two consenting teenagers. Also all those who have been accused of voyeurism or looking at child pornography would be included on the list.

    And these people surely have been reported to the police, correct? Even if YOU cannot prove it, don't you think it would help the authorities to have this information?

    Those who have been accused of child abuse would also be kept.

    Ah, it's nice to know the list of potential child abuse perpetrators also includes, well, child abuse cases in addition to everything else that "big brother" seems to want to keep track of, even for people that have nothing to do with being a witness.

    The list would include many whose guilt or innocence has never been established, but the record would be of use if the person had a second accusation and could therefore help to protect children.

    This list has been turned over to the authorites, as they are the ones requiring the list, no?

    If it has, it should be very easy to substantiate the actual number on that list... (No named, but the number should be easy to obtain)

    If it has not, I have a few questions:

    A.) If the list is being kept because it is required by law, why hasn't it been turned over.. The Society obviously acknoledges a list exists, and now they need to turn it over.. Surely the law would not state to 'keep' a list, and then do nothing with it.

    B.)

    The list would include many whose guilt or innocence has never been established, but the record would be of use if the person had a second accusation and could therefore help to protect children

    Ok, which is it, the list is kept to satisfy USA laws, or to be used if a second accusation occured, and is therefor used to protect children?

    C.)

    In child abuse cases, it is a fact that the perpetrator of these horrible crimes usually attacks more than one victim before being caught.. Why doesn't the society care about any other children then their own? Wouldn't the proper thing to do to protect all children be to turn over the list, so if/when the authorities are notified of additional allegations against a perpetrator, they too have the original allegation.

    The list includes many whose guilt or innocence cannot be proven, but the record would be of use if the person had a second accusation and could therefor help protect children. What if a second allegation does occur, but that person is NOT a witness, and instead of going to the elders (Which they don't even know about) they goto the proper authorities, like 99.999999% of society would do (Only 6 million world wide would goto an elder, the rest of the 6 Billion inhabitants would goto their local police).. If your society is the only one that has this list, with an allegation, the police then would have only 1 allegation, and you would have only 1 allegation in your respective databases.. By not turning over the list, you are not protecting the rest of society, and your lack of concern for the children is leaving a mark of reproach on Jehovah's name! TURN over the list, and protect ALL CHILDREN, not just your own!!!!

    However, the figure of 23,000 has no basis in fact and would appear to be of malicious origin."

    Ok, that means you obviously know what the real figure is.. What is the real figure, and what is your source for this information..

    Making such a statement without any fact to back it up is slanderous to the person(s) who made the opposing statement.. So, prove that the other person is in fact lying, or making up figures.. Present your evidence for all of us to judge for ourselves.. For that matter, just turn over the list, and be done with the whole problem!

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    My response (you've all heard it before)

    This is beating a dead horse over and over.

    In the lawsuits being filed against Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower Society, This is what the lawyers for the plaintiffs have at their disposal and in their arsenal:

    1967 'Your Word is a Lamp to My Foot;

    1972:'Oraganization for Kingdom-Preaching and Disciple-Making;

    1983: Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry

    WT 11/1/85

    1989: Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry

    Ongoing: "Pay Attention To Yourselves and to All the Flock"

    The first four books say the following: "If a Jehovah's Witness feels they have been harmed by another Jehovah's Witness, they may speak of it TO THAT OTHER WITNESS; or to the one or two witnesses to teh evidence OR TO THE ELDERS (in some cases the ELDERS ONLY). The 11/1/85 Watchtower also restates the same principle but adds that a Witnesses may speak to others IF THE 'offending' Witnesses HAS BEEN DISFELLOWSHIPED but does not appear even in that case to encourage it.

    The 1989 edition of the OAM book states further: "Having done this [gone to the elders] you can take it as far as you can. Leave the problem in the hands of the responsible members of the congregation and trust in Jehovah that it will be resolved.

    And in all cases, the primary endeavor will be to restore the wrongdoer/instill wholesome fear in any onlookers/protecting the congregation's good name.

    In all these books, it states that two or more credible witnesses to two different acts at different times of the accused can be a basis for congregational action. This was reiterated at the recent Elder's school. Watchtower makes an exception for abused children: they must have two witnesses to the abuse or they will not be offered assistance or protection and in fact they can be expelled for their accusations. J.R. Brown, spokesperson for Watchtower, saud publicly "We don't change for anybody".

    ALL these books are in the possession of lawyers for the plaintiffs. The text of ALL these books are available all over the internet, and have been for years. The audio of the most recent elder's school is on the internet as well. This is a done did deal. Watchtower conspired with ALL Jehovah's Witnesses for over thirty years to hide sexual abusers in their organization IN WRITING..AND send them to the public's FRONT DOORS.

    Women, since World War Two, cannot hold positions of responsibility in the organization. Known child molesters cannot hold positions of responsibility in the organization. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???

    Jehovah's Witnesses brag about their 120 years of religious freedom in the United States. They brag about their 38 Supreme Court Victories. They brag about their tax exempt status, which means millions if not billions of dollars of taxpayers subsidies on top of everything else.

    And in return, Jehovah's Witnesses have given the public dead children (26 faces on the cover of an infamous Awake...They died for their faith) and RAPISTS AT THEIR DOORS. This the public will not forgive.

    Watchtower, it ain't just over..IT IS SOOO OVER.

    And with this goes my warmest Christian Love.

  • somebody
    somebody

    "From: Mattetria@aol.com
    Message-id: < [email protected]>


    I have since had a chance to look into this matter. 

    [email protected] obviously read and quoted what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society Inc. faxed over to the Panorama Reporter or show. This person used the same excuses in justifing the Publishing companys supporting NO protection for JW children. My guess is that [email protected] is a publisher for the publish company, and reading the WBTS exuse is what he or she considers to be looking into the matter.

    Thank you and Ill visit that discussion board on aol.

    peace,

    somebody

  • zev
    zev

    The first four books say the following: "If a Jehovah's Witness feels they have been harmed by another Jehovah's Witness, they may speak of it TO THAT OTHER WITNESS; or to the one or two witnesses to the evidence OR TO THE ELDERS (in some cases the ELDERS ONLY). The 11/1/85 Watchtower also restates the same principle but adds that a Witnesses may speak to others IF THE 'offending' Witnesses HAS BEEN DISFELLOWSHIPED but does not appear even in that case to encourage it.

    reminds me of the conversations Gwen and i have had since Panorama aired, and the wt faxed letter came out....that the VICTIM may CONFRONT their accuser!

    How can Paul Gillies even Fathom that thought?

    How can a young child be expected to CONFRONT their accuser, and not be intimidated???

    it is simply, unbelievable.

  • sunshineToo
    sunshineToo

    Also included on the list are those who have had underage sex, for example two consenting teenagers

    Isn't this "fornication" , not child abuse, which is a totally different case? And we all know that the WTS doesn't mind reporting to police if the abuser is not a JW. They gave two evidences to Dateline.

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Dung,

    Don't forget the Watchtower Magazine, Questions From Readers, Novermber 15, 1973 that talks about sanctions for any JW who takes another JW in good standing to court.

    hawk

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