Get aload of this..

by Xandria 32 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  Bleep

  So some of them were not silly oh my!
• 

  deddaisy

  Bosho, I'm not trying to respond for xandria, but I can answer as to my feelings for the last highlighted area.......Noone that believes in God would likely debate that he will deal with the guilty in his own time...... we all know there are guilty that walk, look at the case of your niece. there are abusers that are even arrested and go to court and still, usually because of lack of evidence, walk......the belief that God will handle these matters in his time shouldn't, in the mean time, relieve adults of the responsibility of taking action to protect children.....that's pretty much a cop-out.......Have you ever heard of a child molester molesting one child and stopping? authorities, not elders, are better able to investigate reports of molestation and are able to preserve testimony and any evidence that may hopefully get the molestor some time in jail and away from kids. Noone is debating, at least I don't believe anyone is, that a God wouldn't deal with these abusers in time, but for God's sake if the WTS believes in taking such a passive role in dealing with molestation allegations, then why are they so agressive in taking action in allegations of smoking cigarettes, questioning a doctrine, or adult matters like an adult consenting to pre-marital sex? Why not just wait on Jehovah to deal with these big-time offenders also instead of playing judge and jury?

  your niece was abused and your family was rightfully distraught. but can you imagine how your sister-in-law would have felt if she found out that there had been previous allegations of this "friend" molesting the four year old, and no investigation had taken place because the child's JW parents had relied on church elders, instead of authorities, to handle the allegation? It is one thing for police to have no physical evidence and a child that's too young to communicate. It's another thing for a religious organization to suggest to a parent that police need not be notified in a molestation allegation. We're talking about child molestation here, not someone reporting a sister smoking in the grocery store parking lot.........

  Edited by - deddaisy on 15 July 2002 23:17:13
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  Xandria

  The reason I posted this article is to pose the question of the eldership's responsiblity to help the victim recouperate from this trama. But in many cases this is not the fact. More damage is done. When the victim is not allowed to voice concerns, to go to the police, to have a safe congregation to attend b/c the abuser is still in it ( and NOT getting counseling or being really dealt with on his abuses.). Then that is wrong.

  Many of the Eldership .. work on supressing and oppressing the victim. Instead of dealing with the issue. They question in all deep details they judge. How is that being compassionate?

  The point .. even though God will handle it in the end. There is a RESPONSIBLITY of the ELDER because he was placed in a SHEPARDING position over the congregation.

  At least even if the police fail or what ever, at least the victim GOT the chance to put this person way. At least she/he will know that she /he, did his/her best to prevent this from happening to someone else.

  This is not about me believing in God.. that is between God and I. This is about an article that states one thing.. and the Organization appointed members of the eldership (not all elders but there seems to be a lot of them)doing the other.

  Xandria
• 

  Bosho

  What I was trying to say was this.

  Please bear with me, sometimes what I write bears no resemblance to what I think!

  Yes, you are right the elders do have a responsibilty; Yes they have failed alot of children. Yes they should be held accountable and made to pay for that!

  But not all of them are bad.

  And it is not policy to surpress victims or try to hide it. Their policy is for the individual to get in contact with the police as soon as they can. They will even do this on their behalf if required.

  You can't kid me otherwise because it has happened to our family.

  They didn't fail my niece.

  The elders were the ones who said to my sister in law "get intouch with the authorites and quick"

  The "person" (more like scum) who was responsible was in another congregation; The elders in my sisters congregation got into contact with the elders of the other cong. They held a meeting the same day and he was removed from all his responsibilties (he of course denied it and being never found guilty by a court of law he wasn't disfellowshipped either.

  (If you are previous witnesses you should know they can only disfellowship if the person is unrepentant which denial is obviously unrepentant You may disagree with this, but I have no doubt that there would be lawsuit after lawsuit if they did disfellowship regardless of denial)

  He was watched at every meeting and I mean watched! (They followed him everywhere from going to the toilet, and of course it didn't take long for the gossip mill to get to work and every one knew what was going on. Plus my sister in law made damn sure that she passed around to all her friends with children (and ones who didn't) what he'd been doing!)
  Funny thing, he eventually got fed up with being watched and he left.

  Even funnier, he's now an apostate he even speaks out against the organisation about his supposed "Miscarriage of justice, shunning etc!" If I ever got hold of him I'd give him a miscarriage of justice!

  But God is a god of love...read your bible.... look around you.... watch your children.... sit beside a beautiful lake..he is love! of course bearing in mind if he'd done something about it a thousand years ago, Jesus wouldn't have come to earth...no ransom sacrifice.. no one survives.

  You judge God by human standards. You can't do that.He is perfect; so his balance of wisdom, justice etc is perfect. Ours misses the mark by miles.

  And he will make that man pay.... I can only imagine his face when he realises he's lost.

  Death may be quick and he may no nothing after dying.

  But he will in the few seconds before he dies. He'll know. And that's the revenge I want.

  The courts don't do a great job sometimes. How can they when they are run by imperfect humans

  The elders may have failed a lot of children and that is more than shameful that is horrendous and I feel so badly for each and every child who has suffered.]

  But it isn't the policy to keep the police out of it.

  Panorama may have shown the two that didn't. But they didn't ask about what the elders did for my sister in law.

  Or for the two cases in a city by me recently. (Both sets of elders banned the brothers from their halls. (One has gone to prison and one was freed)) Contacted the police on the childrens' behalf, and helped as much as they could.

  Unfortunatly not every elder is as good and responsible. Yeah so they screwed up badly and they should pay for that.
  But don't burn the majority for the minority sins.

  And before anyone points out that you are all apostates and I shouldn't be talking to you. Funnily I'd guessed that already.
  I have my own issues with the organisation which is why I came here. For some answers. To try to get some clarity as to which way I should go.
• 

  Quotes

  Repressed Memories.... interesting that they are using that angle in their stumbling defence.

  Yes, recovery of "repressed memories" does not enjoy scientific favour, and is now rarely seen (much less since the repressed memory hey-day of the late 1980s). With just a few notable exceptions, the Psychiatric and scientific community does not believe in the concept of "recovery of repressed memories". (I won't go into the details here, although it is an interesting topic: look up False Memory Syndrome on google.com or see http://www.fmsfonline.org/ or http://fmsf.com/ for starters).

  Recovery of repressed memories almost always involves (and in the case of proven false memories, always involves) an over eager analyst who unwittingly "feeds" the memory to the "victim" over the course of time.

  For The Society (TM) to use this as part of their defense irks me because:

  (A) this is another case of agreeing with science when it can help their cause (and of course conveniently forgetting all the times they have mocked the scientific method when its results were not in agreement with one of the beliefs).

  (B) Since these recovered memories are recovered with the aid of an analyst, there is extremely little chance that any of the claims of molestation made by a JW are of the recovered memory type, since we know that they, to put it simply, don't agree with psychiatry. For proof of this last point, see http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/psychiatry.htm

  (C) It "paints with a very broad bush". I can just hear the strong JWs now: "Well, all those ones that claimed to be molested by brothers & sisters were wrong, they were either mistaken or deliberately lieing. Maybe they went to a (satan-worshipping) psychiatrist who tricked them into believing the lie. Yup, they are all wrong.".

  This last one bothers me the most, because it directly challenges the credibility of the victims, the vast majority of whom were molested/abused and now are having insult added to injury. Damn, this makes me angry.

  Edited by - Quotes on 17 July 2002 22:40:24
• 

  Big Tex

  I am a survivor of incest, sexual and physical abuse that started when I was a baby and continued until I was 5 years old. Then it stopped completely. I did not remember any of these events until I was 25. I do take issue with you Quotes when you say that "recovery of repressed memories almost always involves an over eager analyst who unwittingly 'feeds' the memory to the victim over the course of time". I experienced this phenomena of repressed memories first hand. No one placed anything, memory or otherwise, in my head. I began having these unexplained "blips", and flashes of bizarre memory long before I sought psychiatric help. During the course of my therapy, neither of the two counselors I saw made any attempt to suggest events, people or places to me. In fact, they were much more interested in the present day, and how I was struggling with depression, than in trying to piece together the past. The memories were most definitely a side issue. As an aside, I did some detective work, and talked with several members of my extended family and confirmed quite a lot of what I was remembering. Obviously the memories of the actual rapes could not be confirmed because there were no witnesses (not even 2 witnesses!). But in all candor, I doubt I will ever have definitive "proof" of who raped me, how many times or how often. But then, I don't think that really matters. I know it happened. I was there and I don't need anyone else's approval or agreement to validate my reality.

  As far as False Memory Syndrome, the facts are that it is in as much dispute as the concept of repressed memories. There was an article regarding this in a recent psychiatric journal (I'm sorry, but I don't recall which one) discussing this very subject. According to the article I read, the website you referenced does have inaccuracies. Personally I believe the whole thing needs further study to fully understand what is going on with human memory. I do agree with you that to rely SOLELY on repressed memories is not a good idea, and yes there have been several instances where poorly trained therapists or those who had an agenda did in fact lead their patients into recalling events that never took place. But please, do not paint us all as having made it up. Not all abuse survivors are making it up. Not everyone who was so traumatized as a child that they shut the memory of it away is a liar. Some of us, just wish we were.

  Peace

  Chris
• 

  Xandria

  Bosho:

  As you read my post, I said MANY-- not all elders. Do not do what is should be required of them.

  Main Entry: 1 many
  Pronunciation: 'me-nE
  Function: adjective
  Inflected Form(s): more / 'mOr, 'mor /; most / 'mOst /
  Etymology: Middle English, from Old English manig; akin to Old High German manag many, Old Church Slavonic munogu much
  Date: before 12th century
  1 : consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number <worked for many years>
  2 : being one of a large but indefinite number <many a man> <many another student>
  - as many : the same in number <saw three plays in as many days>

  As for God handling it all in the end.. that is his place to do so. But it doesn't relieve us or the eldership in dealing with the issues. To use and twist many of the teachings to personal benefit, to shun the victim, to harm another person etc. is wrong. An MANY ex-jw's have gone through to much pain and suffering at the hands of the MANY who are out there.

  It is way past time for the religions of the world to start to clean house. But as long as the blinder syndrome continues it will take a law of accountablity to make these things come to pass.

  Your case with the Eldership is rare and I am glad to see that it was somewhat handled by the congregation being able to stand together to make sure this person was "watched". But even though he was "Watched " within the congregation he is released upon the community. Or even worse for him to start all over again in another congregation. As long as the denial continues our children are in danger... just look at the example in California. Preditors can travel.. and infact do so.

  The bible speaks upon rendering unto the laws of the land. Yet in so many cases...known and unknown it has not been done. If you call that being judemental.. then so be it. But by their fruits ...they are known to us.

  Xandria
• 

  morrisamb

  thank you Xandria for posting this. The fact they would use the scripture below I find very insensitive. If an Elder's daughter or wife had just been raped, would he want to hear this eg. thrown at him? Again, it's this separate from the world business. Let the rapist go and attack someone else?

  When the Samaritan came along, his heart went out to the wounded man. What did he do? Did he insist on hearing every last detail about the beating? Or did the Samaritan get a description of the robbers and immediately chase after them? No. The man was hurt! So the Samaritan gently dressed his wounds and lovingly carried him to the safety of a nearby inn where he could recover.Luke 10:30-37.
• 

  Xandria

  Ps: I am not going to get into a discussion about God when the post was about the policies the WTS state for eldership to use in regards to the abused. .

  Now if you want to ask if I do believe in God .. away from this issue of ACCOUNTABLITY to the congregation.

  The answer is YES I believe in GOD and YES I have a relationship with him. But because I choose to read the Word of God, instead of being spoon fed it by what the WATCHTOWER and AWAKE wants you to read and only think. That is using the teachings of a organization ran by men and interpreted by men as Gospel. There are too many contradictions within those teachings.

  So if you can read my heart through these posts and "JUDGE" me wanting so be it.

  For only GOD knows my heart. Now that will make me a apostate from your way of religion.

  But again who stated that Jehovah chose the Witnesses to be his RELIGION on earth ? Jehovah, GOD, which ever name you want for him is bigger than the Organization you are putting him in. ( another post for another time) ...anyhow.

  There is a difference between RELIGION and being spiritual. Knowing the word of God... doesn't equate knowing God. Knowing God, is bigger than just reading his word. It is practicing it in your actions towards others.

  God is UNCONDITIONAL love.. and in a Organization that places conditions unto thier love then I question it. Because we do not answer to them they are not our judge. God is.. yet they step in countless times to pass judgement and condemnation of a brother or sister. An shun them or shame them into returning to an organization, that uses fear to keep people in line. How is that God's mercy ? God is the only one who can "forgive" us for our sin.. he is the one that shows us mercy. He understands that we are imperfect. We repent to him and ONLY him. Not to an organization of men.

  If the eldership truely were to shepard the congregation.. that man who abused your family member would not have only been removed from congregational duties. but would have recieved counseling. Would have had fellowship in helping him grow stronger in the Lord. We are to help our brothers and sisters.. not harm them.
• 

  Bosho

  So now you say they need counselling.

  I think you're slightly mixed up here. The elders responsibility is to the Children first. In the case of my neice, the man was adamant he had done nothing. How do you counsel that?

  You can't take take chances with children.

  Most adults can protect themselves. Children can't.

  You say the elders should have counselled him and then what?

  Let him back in to carry on?

  As it stands that is no better than what the elders have done in the cases shown in Panorama.

  Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.