Elders and Culpability Revisited

by dungbeetle 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    Elders and Culpability Revisited

    Since the issue keeps coming up no matter what (Watchtower ingrained in all JWs the position elders had and how no one should question the elders. On the other hand, we should all turn in errant publishers).

    I would like to say first that I have said some harsh words on the subject, to Amazing and to Marvin Shilmer and to Jst2laws and Hillary_Step (I read the book "Into Thin Air" and I know what that means now!!). As for my feelings about what I said, let me say this:

    That I have since met Jst2laws in person and have talked to Amazing on the phone. My feelings for THEM have changed considerably and my postion on the issue has softened somewhat.

    The problem with the issue of "Elders and Culpability" as it was presented and debated in those five or so threads over some fifty pages over a period of almost two months by some one hundred people, is that, just like Watchtower would have us do, it was all or nothing, and this is NEVER warranted, people are not all good or all bad and I wish I had had the insight to express my views in a way that reflected this simple truth. I needed more practice toward that goal, and believe me since then, I have gotten it. Meeting Bill Bowen in person twice hasnt hurt either, and a few other individuals. These men have personalities that would melt solid rock. For anyone who feels, like I do, that they have been hurt by elders, meeting men SUCH AS THESE in person is an absolute must.

    However, it was pointed out to me that elders, too are victims in a sense. "Do you really believe," I have been asked, "that I SET OUT to have my family to live at such a low standard of subsistance? I WANTED them to have better vacations, better clothes, a nicer car, I would have LOVED for my children to have better and more extended education so they wouldnt have to work so hard. NOBODY sets OUT to be this kind of parent." Which made sense to me. "And, too, I could have gone to college, been a doctor or a lawyer or a scientist, I would have LOVED to have contributed to the world somehow---but I couldnt do that any more than any publisher, Watchtower doesnt let elders off the hook that way any more so than the publishers" Upon finally exiting the Watchtower, "We have all the same regrets, all the same realizations of the life we could have had and the life we could have given our families, as you did. We have to live with that the rest of our lives just as the exiting publishers do."

    I could not argue with such logic.

    On the other hand, it is nothing less than absolute emotional abuse to say to a publisher hurt by an elder, "Just get over it. That is atrocious, and let it be known that not only was this attitude presented MANY MANY times by persons I had come to RESPECT, but this attitude still exists TODAY. Several times in the last couple of days, disruptive and abusive posters were spoken of as "Theyve made lots of progress, give them a break, be nice to them." But there are posters on this board, not part of the in crowd that express themselves fearlessly right or wrong, good or bad, easily understood or notthat HAVE exited the organization and ARE trying to straighten out their lives and ARE trying to help their fellow man and fellow ex-jws----and they get called names such as whacko and psycho and over emotional and illogical and everything else, even though they do not break board rules.

    Their only crime is speaking out as to what they think and how they feel.

    OH BOY is this familiar.

    In any case, this did not go to the crux of the whole elder and culpability issue, which WASand still IS-do those still serving as elders in the Watchtower regime bear extra culpability for Watchtower atrocities.

    Watchtower says they do. "There have been some elders who have screwed up." "There have been times when action should have been taken and it wasnt, and assistance should have been given and it wasnt" and finally "it is possible that a few of the 77,799 elders of Jehovah's Witnesses have not followed the direction that they have been given regarding investigating and reporting child abuse." Regardless of the truth of these Watchtower statements, (and their truth is questionable at best) obviously even Watchtower deems elders responsible for some of the organizations problems. Not ALL elders mishandle congregational matters so badly that they end up on national television or in a courtroom.

    But in any case, without a doubt, many many elders really did NOT know the Watchtowers history, not even Ray Franz knew some of Watchtowers history and he was on the governing body. For myself, I will no longer judge anyone in the Watchtower except on a person by person case. Having been in and around the organization myself for almost thirty years, I would want the same for me.

    Peace to all of you here on the board, and to the walking wounded yet to join us. We all need it.

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    I appreciate your humble comments. A couple thoughts of my own:

    1) "...I will no longer judge anyone in the Watchtower..." Neither will I. Life is for sharing and healing, not for continuing the exclusive and hateful opinions many of us fostered for decades.

    2) "...except on a person by person case." How can I judge anyone? A person may agree or disagree with me, defend or betray me, do me great good or serious harm, love or hate me. Still, should I judge them? Does any finite human have that skill? I certainly don't. Even if I did, I deliberately choose not to utilize it against the many hundred JWs I know who are honest and sincere "walking wounded" humans along with me/us.

    I choose to let it pass and move on.

    PS: I started this post in the we/us mode. Please forgive the I/me/my.

  • Guest 77
    Guest 77

    dungb., My brother is an elder and he spoke to my son recently,and he agreed that we are answerable to a creator, not to an organization. I was taken back, though my brother requested a Bible study ages ago with me,I have hoped that some of the influence may have rubbed off on him. He is gradually mellowing as one of his son left the org. and has a 'controlling' wife. Out of the frying pan into the fire.

    Thanks for expressing your view. Guest 77

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    That was a nice post Dungbeetle. I think the more people we meet in person the more we understand them. Losing some of the anger is good, or at least directing it more toward what specifically is at the root of the problem is better.

    I struggled myself with that whole elder/culpability issue. To excuse the actions of many of these men, whether they really understood what they were doing or not at the time seems unfair and unjust. And yet when you meet many who have crossed over to "our side" it seems harsh and unfair to hold them accountable for the past.

    I think the reality check that these men get when they leave the organization is a harsh reminder to them that they were not as big as they thought they were and they were no better than anyone else. If anything they were the bigger fools, the bigger victims.

    Path

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf
    Hi, Dungbeetle ---
    You warm my heart. I thoroughly agree.
    A couple of thoughts, though. You may remember a thread a short time back that was started by Logical, I think. It brought up the question as to whether we found ourselves deficient in the social skills department due to our experiences in the Organization. I think most of us came out lacking in some way, and come on this board unpolished. It's only by such interaction as you've mentioned above that we come to such knowledge and the realization of the changes that we could make to be more effective in the things we want to accomplish.
    Many times such name calling as you describe is the result of that deficiency and it takes some time for them to grow beyond it. Sometimes it is a symptom of the real problem: This is all new, fearful, and threatening. They don't know what to expect and are overly touchy. The result is the big brave "don't-tread-on-me" front.
    But at times such put-downs are necessary or even beneficial. When some abuse those who are undeserving, they need called down for it. Otherwise the abuse will only increase and more innocent ones will be hurt. An example of that would be D8TA and the way he was calling down Island Woman the other day. It was completely unnecessary and counterproductive, for his vituperation more than cancelled out any value that he is obviously capable of imparting. Apparently his character flaw is that he is convinced all he has to do to be a big man is to beat up on all the little girls.
    Others would be like Quantum. He's an individual who again is capable of contributing. However, he is so stuck on himself that one needs to hold down the gag reflex just to read his posts. No one will pay any attention to him until he learns to tone down his self-centeredness. Belting him over the head with a paragraph or two will be doing him a favor in the long run.
    onacruse ---
    "...except on a person by person case." How can I judge anyone?
    You are, of course, correct in the case of judging their heart condition and whether or not they are worthy of being treated humanely. However, I feel that Dungbeetle was referring to how much the person could be counted on. For instance, would you put as much confidence in the words of a known liar as you would in those of an individual who bends over backward to be honest? This is a type of judging that is not only proper, but utterly necessary.
    LoneWolf
  • Amazing
    Amazing

    HI Dungbeetle:

    I very much appreciate your post and words of consolation. This issue is something that generates a lot of feelings in many ex-JWs, depending on how they experienced their unique JW life and their individual interactions within the JW culture. I have some additional issues which involve closely related topic to this, and will start a new thread on it in a few days ...

    The WTS teachings and beliefs are something that if we were sincere JWs, we believed, and as believers, we bought the entire system, lock, stock, and barrel ... and with those beliefs were a set of assumptions of love, honesty, integrity, concern for truth more so than the non-JW world around us ... and as a result, everything within the JW system made sense ... held meaning ... and we fit in when, where, and however we could ... now today ...

    Hindsight is 20/20 ... the JW system is seen for all its flaws, be it the Elder/MS categories, or Pioneers, etc. ... the only difficulty I have is that I am remmebering and finding less and less good with the religion and more and more flaws and deliberative evil is to be found at its highest levels. Sometimes, the conspiracy theorists start to make some sense.

    I truly believe that the vast majority of rank & file JWs, including Elders are good sincere people who are seriously misled, misinformed, cheated and lied to by an obviously uncaring and selfish set of leaders ... I suppose the level of culpability of any JW, is how much they keep pushing and supporting the system compared to their level of knowledge, misgivings, and power to do something about it ... I can see a sincere and ignorant Elder being less culpable than say a long time former Bethelite who is now at home, not an Elder, and who knows the evil at the top, but says nothing while they support the religion ... likewise, I can see a good sincere high ranking Bethelite who was/is blind to the evil at the top being less culpable than others such as COs and DOs who know good and damn well the religion is a sham.

    On the other hand, I can also see any of these persons at various stages of cognative dissonance, growth, doubt, fear, and concern for JW family ... in a struggle of what to believe, what to do, whether to to come out of their closet and suffer loss of wife and children ... or to stay and try to find a way out for their close loved ones ... it is something that I suppose boils down to the individual, what they know, and what circumstances they face ... and ...

    IN the end, it is God who will make the final judgment ... our job, as you rightly pointed out, is not to judge the heart of our fellow human ... along with your well stated point, I believe, our job is to keep love alive so that anyone who escapes the unloving and uncaring JW system can find a way to heal, and can in some cases, understand what truly unselfish non-judgmental love is - maybe for the first time in their lives - even former JW Elders.

    Edited by - Amazing on 11 July 2002 11:24:3

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Dundbeetle,

    A very touching post and one with which I concur.

    people are not all good or all bad

    This point is so important and it especially caught my notice.

    Thanks Dung - HS

  • crawdad2
    crawdad2

    hi dungbeetle,

    the gov body say's that the molestation problem may be worse because some elders don't follow the instructions of the gov body closely enough,............... that's not true!............. the problem is due to elders closely following the instructions of the gov body.............. the gov body knows exactly what they are doing, and they are guilty............... any gov body members who don't agree could have stepped down, like ray franz............ i guess they don't mind sharing in her sins........ rev 18: 4, 5, 6.

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    LoneWolf, point well taken. Would be a fool not to exercise careful selection (read "judgement") of those I can trust. Spent 40 years self-confidently judging non-dubs, the word "judgement" now sticks in my throat. Got to get a balance.

    DB, apologize if I misunderstood. Deeply respect the human empathy of your post.

    Thanks to you both!

    Edited by - onacruse on 11 July 2002 14:17:5

  • waiting
    waiting

    But in any case, without a doubt, many many elders really did NOT know the Watchtowers history, not even Ray Franz knew some of Watchtowers history and he was on the governing body. For myself, I will no longer judge anyone in the Watchtower except on a person by person case. Having been in and around the organization myself for almost thirty years, I would want the same for me.

    Peace to all of you here on the board, and to the walking wounded yet to join us. We all need it.

    Hey Dungb,

    This is such a good point....worth repeating. Thank you. Some of the elders I've met in my 30 yrs as an adult jw female have been good men - a couple of them - just excellent, even if ordinary. A couple of elders have been rotten scoundrels - and even other elders have said so.

    I strongly believe that all these men would have been basically the same kind of personality whether in the org. or out.....just like we are. We're xjw's - but we're basically the same personalities as before.

    I think we ALL need to give breathing room to each other, learn about each other and stop with the individual insults and slurs. If we want to argue/discuss IDEAS - great!

    Jesus' teaching (or whoever's) that we should treat others as we want to be treated really is a good teaching. Much better than an eye for an eye.

    waiting

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