by FusionTheism 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Jonathan Drake,
Are you saying that a person must reject faith in order to be a good person or to actively make the world a better place?
Can you list 5 atheists who changed the world for the better?
I can name hundreds of theists/deists:
* William Wilberforce
* Abraham Lincoln
* George Washington
* Martin Luther King Jr.
* John F Kennedy
* Francis Collins
* Isaac Newton
* Barack Obama
* Mother Theresa
Maybe it shouldnt if you were dealing with machinery made of steel but we are dealing with humans with hearts who are coming out of a bad storm (religiously speaking)
Have you heard the saying
At the end of the day people won't remember what you said or did,they will remember how you made them feel.
Let me just go ahead and address the elephant in the room....the A word (atheism) or would it be the T word (theism)?
I say that because this seems to be where we all feel the most angst,
If the theists are to be reached it is NOT going to be by the methods some here use.
So if the goal of a poster (theist or atheist) is to try to reach people then they may want to consider that.
If that is not their goal - then the methods speak to it being something else entirely that is at work.
Well I can't disagree; this is a very good point. People will remember how they are made to feel first. This is why I try to stay as respectful as I can (though I have my moments).
This is very difficult though, because the majority (absolutely not all, but the majority) of theists are made to feel that they are being attacked rather easily. Usually, this feeling arises the moment cognitive dissonance takes place. Because of this what you suggest, and I wish was always possible, of avoiding making them feel attacked is sort of impossible. I'd argue it's absolutely impossible in this sort of setting, devoid of all body language and tone of voice.
Take for example my dad. During one of our many discussions he positioned that people of the world who aren't Jehovah's witnesses actually age faster. In support of this he stated all the people he went to high school with are his age (mid forties) but look like they are 60 or older. My response was a perfectly rational question, "do you feel it rational and logical to compare the few people from your highschool to the 8 billion others on earth?" There was silence for a few seconds and I could literally see the dissonance happen. The response I got was to be insulted and told I was being a know it all and much more. Clearly he felt attacked, but would you say he had merit to feel that way?
this is the problem. Theists react to reasonable investigation of their faith as though it some how makes them victims of some attack. It does not.
I think it's possible that the Universe came into being and we were created by someone, or life was seeded on Earth. Who knows, maybe we came from somewhere else or have been left here?
We could be a fluke or an experiment too. None of what I said can be proven, of course. Even so, I am free to investigate whatever I want. So are you.
Whatever you share can be ridiculed by anyone having a bad day. It happens. You gotta wear your big boy pants. That's life.
DD
That experience about your Dad (Jonathan) is very easy to relate to. Boy does that sound familiar!
You are right about the dissonance kicking in right at the moment a breakthrough could occur, Or should I say that IF it is going to occur that would be the most likely time?
You use that word reasonable again, perhaps I am deceiving myself in thinking I can reason but I cannot even get to the point you are describing!
My dissonance doesnt even get to rear its head because I am so off put at the language and the rudeness being displayed before I even join in.
the topic could be apples and the way some are conducting themselves I wouldnt even be able to get to the actual topic of apples!
Im not quite at the point yet but I do see the point coming where if I am going to be "allowed" to explore atheism/theism, I am going to have to do it somewhere besides here at this forum.
That is sad. Sad for me as this is the first and only forum I come to and sad for the posters who "thought" they were doing such a good job of promoting their views when the opposite is the fact of the matter.
Theists react to reasonable investigation of their faith as though it some how makes them victims of some attack. It does not.
Yeah, the above "Hurt Feelings Report" is NOT a personal attack on the OP. *rolls eyes*
The language and TONE of atheists is rarely 'reasonable' and what would be considered acceptable in an academic debate. It's more like a dirty politics debate. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
SMH
DATA-DOG
Whatever you share can be ridiculed by anyone having a bad day. It happens. You gotta wear your big boy pants. That's life.
Can those be tight pants and can I wear colored socks? Spanx?
Just kidding D.D.
If someone is having a bad day, yes, they can be excused - it happens. When that is their method of approach then its more than a "bad day". Its a compensation for something and why should others here have to absorb that?
The grow up thing works both ways, right?
Jonathan Drake,
Are you saying that a person must reject faith in order to be a good person or to actively make the world a better place?
Can you list 5 atheists who changed the world for the better?
I can name hundreds of theists/deists:
* William Wilberforce
* Abraham Lincoln
* George Washington
* Martin Luther King Jr.
* John F Kennedy
* Francis Collins
* Isaac Newton
* Barack Obama
* Mother Theresa
No I would never say that a person must reject faith to make the word a better place. That's a ridiculous thing to say because it's factually wrong. People of faith have made positive contributions to society. But PEOPLE aren't being scrutinized, their beliefs and religions are. PEOPLE have made positive changes in the world, religion paved the way to the holocaust.
Making the claim you're making here doesn't actually say anything. The world has been dominated by religion all the way up to Darwin, and even after Darwin it still has a grip on society. Of course there have been theists who made the world a better place, but in order to do so what first had to happen was the church had to lose its authority.
While religion actually RULED we, as a species, were unable to advance ethically, morally, or scientifically. Attempts to do so were labeled heresy and resulted in death or imprisonment.
While religion ruled, people lived in huts and mud, died of diseases believed to be caused by scourges and were kept poor while kings and princes lived lives of luxury believed to be ordained by god and supported by the church. Only because of science has any of this changed, diseases were no longer because of God, people had good food and homes and those of lower classes today enjoy better luxuries than kings and princes could ever even dream of under religious rule. Only by man and because of man has society improved and that only because religion lost its control.
i could absolutely name atheists who changed the world, but it doesn't actually mean anything, I won't reduce their accomplishments to some pointless competition. Even if I could not do this, it doesn't change the empirical evidence that religion is the source of the worst things that ever happened in our history and now.
I cannot stress enough the example of stem cell research. Banned because of religious dogma. Because this research exists and could end the suffering of millions of people, the fact that those millions suffer still must be laid at the feet of religion as its fault. This is only one example of the harms of religion affecting society out of numerous others.
Yeah, the above "Hurt Feelings Report" is NOT a personal attack on the OP. *rolls eyes*
It's not. It's a comment on the whole "I'm not saying who, but I am making it plain who I mean" method of complaining. It' a comment on the method of whining where the person is making it plain who they are complaining about but simply don't have the fortitude to say so.
It's a rather childish method and calling that method out isn't a personal attack.
The language and TONE of atheists is rarely 'reasonable' and what would be considered acceptable in an academic debate. It's more like a dirty politics debate. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
I doubt you've any idea what the tone of academic debates are. Don't pretend to know things you don't.
You use that word reasonable again, perhaps I am deceiving myself in thinking I can reason but I cannot even get to the point you are describing!
It is reasonable to investigate claims of universal truth. Religious beliefs claim that there is a God who made the world and has directly had interaction with it since in various ways (except ,for some reason, the last 2000 years). It's natural for human beings to want to investigate such claims.
if I told you that your spouse was cheating on you, wouldn't you demand evidence? You would want to investigate why I believe this to be true and scrutinize my reasons.
The same would be true if I told you that eating blue Popsicles can literally make you fly. Would you believe this? Not without some serious evidence, I'm sure.
so now I tell you that 2000 years ago a man performed miraculous healing, resurrected the dead, and then was murdered all as a plan by God to save your soul (or whatever, wash you of sin etc) and you (if you're a theist) require no proof at all.
people naturally investigate everything for whether it is true or not EXCEPT faith. As a species our credulity scales with evidence everywhere but religion - this is why it is not reasonable, because it has been deemed unacceptable to investigate it for real truth while we do the same for literally everything else.
